Cheryl Strayed on walking through the wilderness
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Cheryl Strayed on walking through the wilderness
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This week Katherine chats to Cheryl Strayed, author of ‘Wild’ and so many more.
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Listen to the Episode
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Katherine May (00:08):
I'm out in Blean Wood. It's really wet underfoot. There comes a point every winter where the whole wood just gets covered in water at one end, it's extraordinary the way it happens. The wood itself is full of little channels that presumably were once dug a long time ago, but which now drain the wood really efficiently. But there comes a point when the rain gets too heavy and everything is absolutely underwater for acres of woodland. It's amazing how the wood adapts.
Katherine May (00:54):
We're approaching mid winter now, the darkest time of the year and increasingly my favourite time of the year. I love that pause at the end of the shortest day. That moment when you feel the year turning and something else coming through. Is this beautiful quiet at moment in the year, if you let it happen, if you notice it. I never used to notice it. And now I know it's here. I look forward to it. I'll be lighting a fire, spending some quiet time with some friends and the next morning I'll get up and watch the sunrise, and feel that peace. Anyway. I love the woods at this time of year. All of that water fills them, fills the gaps between the trees with these enormous puddles that are black because of the quality of the soil underneath, years and years of leaf mulch, all gathered up together. And so the woodland becomes full of black mirrors, perfectly reflecting the trees. It's so beautiful. I don't know why more people don't talk about this stuff.
Katherine May (02:23):
So I'm so excited this week to have Cheryl Strayed on the podcast, one of my writing heroes. I was so thrilled when she said yes when I asked her. It's just, some writers just really touch you, I think. She's a walker like I am. I read Wild before I embarked on my big walk that I undertook for The Electricity of Every Living Thing. But it's not just that. I love the earthiness that she writes with, the sincerity, the commitment, the rawness. I just feel like she's a writer that you get contact with unquestionably.
Katherine May (03:18):
I was rereading some of her Dear Sugar letters in advance of this. I always like to read people just before I talk to them. And if you haven't read them, do pick them up. But there's something extraordinary about the way she addresses these people who come to her for help. And I just sat there crying, tears streaming down my face. I just love the way she dances with language. Anyway, that's enough puff from me. But I hope you'll enjoy the interview. So thrilled to have been able to do it. And I'm just walking past some beautiful chestnut trees covered in white lichen. The whole wood feels almost monochrome today. It's such a pleasure to come out here at this of year and to think. So I'm going to do some thinking. Hope you enjoy the interview.
Katherine May (04:40):
Cheryl, welcome. It's amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing.
Cheryl Strayed (04:45):
Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here.
Katherine May (04:48):
It's great. I'm, been a huge fan of your work for a long time, but I don't know if you know, my previous book to Wintering was called Electricity of Every Living Thing. And it was me taking a long walk. And when I was planning the book, I picked up Wild again and then got this terrible fear because it's like, "Oh, God, she finished the walk and I didn't." A, it was a harder walk.
Cheryl Strayed (05:17):
Oh, that's interesting. I haven't read that book. I didn't know about that book. I'm going to race out and get it after we're done talking. But that's funny though, Katherine, because I think I feel when I read Wintering I was like, "Okay," we're kindred spirits. I identify with you a lot. But here's the thing, there really is no such thing. I finished quote unquote, you didn't finish quote unquote, but I think that a walk is an ongoing process and there's no such thing really-
Katherine May (05:48):
Definitely.
Cheryl Strayed (05:48):
... as finishing or not finishing, it's one foot in front of the other and come what may.
Katherine May (05:53):
It's all you can do. And you merge with your walk. You are the walk after a while. It's not about destination, it's not about miles. It took me a long time to figure that out though, that actually it's the process of... It's the rhythm almost, of keeping going, that's all the walk is.
Cheryl Strayed (06:11):
Absolutely. And I think that there are so many reasons why I love walking, not just in my own life, but as an activity in the world that lots of people get to do, is there is that, you're always running your own race. In fact, it's not a race. I've had so many conversations with people who of course have gone and hiked some long wilderness trail after they read Wild, they were inspired to take some big journey. But more importantly, I have talked to people who said, "I didn't dare walk a mile or a kilometre by myself before I read the book-
Katherine May (06:44):
Wow. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (06:44):
... and now I do." And so that can be as wild and adventurous, that first time you go on a walk alone as any wilderness trek.
Katherine May (06:55):
Yeah. Totally. And it's funny, actually. There was this thing that happened to me just before I started Electricity that never made it into the book, but it inspired the book, which was that I'd gone for a little walk one day, just a little stroll after work. And I parked my car at the edge of the woods and there was an older guy parked in his car, in the car park. And as I got out, he wound down the window and called me over. And very naively, I went over and said, "Oh, hi, you're okay?" And he said, "If I were you, I wouldn't do that." And I said, "What? Sorry." And he said, " A girl like you," a girl like me. God, I was like 40 for God's sake. But, "A girl like you on your own."
Katherine May (07:34):
And it was so creepy. And there was a bit of me that wanted to defiantly just go into the woods anyway and walk because it was my place to walk in. But of course I couldn't, I just obediently got back in my car and drove off because I was scared. And I think there is, I mean, ah. I know you had a really intimidating incident along the trail as well. And actually one of the things I want to say is it's unusual, isn't it? Most of the time when I'm walking alone, I feel completely unthreatened. I don't know if that's the same for you.
Cheryl Strayed (08:07):
Yeah. I mean, the scenario that you present, the experience you had, it really is complicated because in so many ways, obviously he was creepy and I would have been afraid too. I would need back up. And yet he's in so many ways speaking with the voice of the culture. We were both raised in cultures that said women shouldn't do things alone, women shouldn't certainly venture into the wilderness alone or walk alone. I mean, that really is one of the first messages I think girls receive when they-
Katherine May (08:41):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, loud and clear.
Cheryl Strayed (08:42):
... figure out... Yeah, don't go by yourself in the world. And I thought about this a lot when I decided to take my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail, because I knew from step one, I was breaking a deeply, deeply held code of the culture or rule for girls and women because, don't go alone because something bad could happen to you and then it's your fault. And I rejected every layer of that. And I decided that I had to really reckon with my fear and confront that thing you had to confront, "Do I go? Or do I get back in my car and drive away?" And of course there are many times that I've said, "No, I am too afraid I won't do it."
Cheryl Strayed (09:28):
But in the case of that summer, when I decided to hike the PCT I just decided I wasn't going to let fear be the thing that ruled me. And part of the way I kept myself safe is another thing you say, which is once you're out there, you feel perfectly safe. And the scary times, the scary places honestly, are the places that we encounter men. And I hate to say this-
Katherine May (09:53):
Yeah. That's so true.
Cheryl Strayed (09:53):
... it's the parking lots, it's the intersections. And of course I love men, I know a lot of men would never harm anyone.
Katherine May (10:00):
No.
Cheryl Strayed (10:00):
But it is also true that-
Katherine May (10:02):
There's a percentage. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (10:04):
Yeah. There are men who harm women. And it's scary. It's a complicated thing about going alone.
Katherine May (10:09):
It is. And as you say, you're quite right, it is the parking lots that are the scary bits. When you walk through those little pieces where everyone's parked and maybe there's a tea hut or a pub, they're the bits when you have your hackles up straight away. And I mean, over and over again, what struck me, I was on the South West Coast Path in Devon, was that I saw so many women walking alone there and it was glorious and we'd nod to each other as we passed. And that would be it. Nobody wanted to stop and talk. Everyone was there just to walk and to be alone in their own heads. And my guess is that everyone was processing something different. I certainly was.
Cheryl Strayed (10:51):
Yeah. I mean, do you find... Sometimes I'll go on a walk when... Well, I walk every day. But sometimes I'll go on a walk when I'm trying to work out a problem. But even when I'm not, and by problem, I don't mean a trouble necessarily. Sometimes it's really just in my writing life. Actually walking is part of my writing life. I find that I'll write something and purposely say, "Okay, now I'm going to walk for a half hour because I know that new ideas will come to me." But even if I go out there, just because I want to get some exercise, what inevitably happens is I start to think about things that I need to think about, that this is the way that I think walking is so healing, is you don't even really have to try.
Katherine May (11:37):
No.
Cheryl Strayed (11:38):
In Wild, I very much, anyone who has read the book or seen the movie knows that I really did go on that hike because my life was in crisis. And I needed in some ways to try to heal myself or find myself again. But what I always say is, you could also go hike that trail not looking for any kind of transformation and you're going to get it anyway.
Katherine May (12:00):
You'll get it anyway.
Cheryl Strayed (12:01):
Even if you're not seeking it.
Katherine May (12:03):
I know. I think it opens up this incredible space. And I mean, like you I walk every day, but I take short walks. But it's those longer walks that I need to really empty my head. I think the thing about walking is it gives you those revelations, but it gives you them slump wise. You don't get them directly, you don't get to think it through really deliberately. They drop into your head after about three hours and when everything feels empty. And I don't know anything else that does that. I'm a meditator, but walking takes me somewhere further than that, sometimes I think.
Cheryl Strayed (12:41):
Yeah. I mean, I've never succeeded at meditating and perhaps because I've hardly tried. I tried it but I'm not drawn to it. It's funny because when people read my work as Dear Sugar, which in case you or your listeners don't know, it's an advice column, a very unorthodox advice column that I write.
Katherine May (13:01):
Oh, we will be talking about that in a minute. Don't you worry.
Cheryl Strayed (13:04):
Oh, okay. And people, all of the advice I give, it's very often suggesting mindfulness practices essentially. And so I think people have this image of me that I'm always, every day I sit and do my meditation. But what I do is walk in meditation. And that to me, and the reason I have never been drawn to meditation is I just hate the idea of having to just sit there and say, "Okay, I'm going to empty my mind." But somehow can do that if I'm moving.
Katherine May (13:36):
No you're doing it. You're doing it already. I mean, and meditation is so different to what I thought it was. And I rarely sit and meditate anymore. I used to do the whole thing of 20 minutes, twice a day. I was absolutely religious about it. And that broke for loads of reasons. And one of those was motherhood. I mean, my son's nine now, I still don't get 20 minutes twice a day of the peace that I would need to be uninterrupted and to be able to shut myself in a room. Somebody would come in. I would love to say that they [inaudible 00:14:11]. But I find loads of different ways to just make some space, I think. And I actually prefer it that way. I like the improvisation of it, I like the informality, I like that feeling of going with what your gut wants on that day. I think it's taken me all my lifetime to tune into my gut. And I cling to that now.
Cheryl Strayed (14:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I'm always struck by what a difference it makes if you can do even micro mindfulness, I guess, where even just when you were talking just now I was listening to you and I consciously took a deep breath and even just that I was like, "Oh, I feel better. I feel better." I took a deep breath. I took a moment to pause and tune into my body. And I think that that is the goal of mindfulness. And it really gives us so much if we just spend a tiny bit of time on it each day.
Katherine May (15:08):
It's amazing how easy it is not to breathe, isn't it? That endlessly-
Cheryl Strayed (15:11):
Crazy.
Katherine May (15:11):
... fascinates me, how often I think, "Oh, I'm not breathing right now. I'm just slowly asphyxiating in my own fear."
Cheryl Strayed (15:19):
Yeah. Have you read that book, Breathe? Maybe it came out a year or so two ago.
Katherine May (15:24):
I haven't. It's on my list. Yeah, no, it looks great. James Nestor.
Cheryl Strayed (15:28):
Me too. It's on my shelf.
Katherine May (15:30):
Ah.
Cheryl Strayed (15:30):
Yes. It's right here, I'm looking at it right now and I've been meaning to read it, but I'm too busy to breathe, so how can I read a book of everything?
Katherine May (15:40):
I'm a bit scared of it though, because I went to see a heliotropic breath work person once. Have you ever come across one of those?
Cheryl Strayed (15:48):
No, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Katherine May (15:51):
Well, okay. So what they do is they, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm admitting to this. What they do is they make you lie down on a couch and essentially you breathe in this pattern that's a bit like hyperventilating. And the idea is that eventually your body takes on the rhythm that you force on it. And it's supposed to be almost like psychedelic, it's supposed to bring around revelations. It's supposed to heal-
Cheryl Strayed (16:16):
Wow.
Katherine May (16:16):
... trauma. It's supposed to release health stuff. Okay. I was the worst subject he's ever worked with. You could just feel this guy getting more and more frustrated because... And after a while he made me put the top end of a bottle that he cut off in my mouth to try and help me to hold the foam. And still I couldn't. And then I just realised that I was basically dribbling out of this bottle. Anyway, an hour in, I was like, "I don't think this is going work." And I had to leave. But since then-
Cheryl Strayed (16:50):
Oh, my gosh.
Katherine May (16:50):
Yeah. I hated the feeling. All of my friends have been to see him and thought he was just a magician and he'd released all this stuff for them. And I came in resistant and I went out resistant again.
Cheryl Strayed (17:03):
Is it like... I mean, it sounds like it's a bit different, but sometimes in yoga, there's this-
Katherine May (17:10):
Oh, like Pranayama.
Cheryl Strayed (17:11):
... I'm forgetting the name of it now, but you have to go [inaudible 00:17:13]. It's like you're forcing your breath out really hard in a rapid fashion.
Katherine May (17:19):
Yeah. It was like that. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (17:21):
And I find it to be, it's like fire breathing or something. I find it to be really uncomfortable. I'm like, "No, that's just not for me."
Katherine May (17:28):
Yeah. I did not like it.
Cheryl Strayed (17:29):
I'll do it, but I'm like, "Let's get this over with." Yeah. Okay.
Katherine May (17:33):
And ever since then, don't ever do it. I'm not recommending it.
Cheryl Strayed (17:35):
I'm never going to do it, but I will read the book. I will read the books. Is it breath or breathe? I don't remember.
Katherine May (17:42):
I actually don't know. And I'll check it and put it in the show notes because I think it's published by my same publisher actually. So they're probably listening to this, rolling their eyes. But yeah. So ever since then, any hint of breath work, my body's like, "No, no we are not doing that again. No way. Uh-uh (negative)." Oh, oh. It's making me breathe funny, just saying that. Isn't that weird?
Cheryl Strayed (18:04):
Yeah.
Katherine May (18:04):
I'm going to take a breath. But yeah, actually, talking about this, it takes me back to that idea of when we walk and how we walk, there's something about gut instinct for women, when you choose to do that and when it feels safe and when it feels okay and maybe that's no bad thing, maybe having a practice that tunes you into when you are safe and when for whatever reason you don't feel safe is better than marching through life and not ever knowing.
Cheryl Strayed (18:38):
Yeah. I mean, I think absolutely that those mindfulness practices contribute to our sense of wellbeing in part, because I guess it's about reading your body, trusting your intuition, all those senses that are hard to define or express. Another thing for me though, and I think this was really actually key in my life. Well, first of all, I grew up in a rural environment. And so I wasn't somebody who felt like the wilderness was a scary and dangerous and forbidding place. I actually felt that way about the city, when I went to college, I was terrified. I was like, "I'm going to be stabbed on the street on the first day," or something. I was scared about that. And so some of that is to familiarise yourself with the landscape that you want to walk in, whether it be city or country or wilderness.
Cheryl Strayed (19:30):
But the other thing too is I have never been drawn to scary movies, scary stories. I've really seen very, very few of those kinds of things. And I actually think that that was a good thing when it came to me, deciding to walk alone because I am the type of person who's like if I've seen a million movies where some woman is alone in a tent and then suddenly some terrible beast comes slashing through, that's going to play in my mind when I'm alone in a tent. So it was really helpful to me.
Katherine May (20:02):
I am exactly the same.
Cheryl Strayed (20:05):
So I'm like, "Be careful of what you expose yourself to." And of course there are all these people out there listening who will be like, "Oh, I love scary movies." My daughter, for example, just loves scary things. But I do think that you have to, if you're going to take that stuff in, find a way to really put that aside and realise it's fiction, not that scary things don't happen in real life, but that you can-
Katherine May (20:28):
No.
Cheryl Strayed (20:28):
... play those movies in your head in a way that keeps you from doing things.
Katherine May (20:32):
Yeah. And I feel like I don't want to dwell on that side of life. And in fact, I don't know, about 10 years ago, I realised that watching TV drama before bed was keeping me awake. Not just because I was scared, although sometimes it was because I was scared, but other times it was just overstimulating. I was so excited by the story or my head was still in it and I couldn't sleep. And so I stopped watching it. And then after that, there was no real reason to watch TV much, to be honest, because I wasn't really following anything. And so now I don't watch TV very much. And when I tell people that they're a little bit affronted, like I'm judging them. And there's no judgment there, it's literally that I realised that it really wasn't all that good for me to watch those series that everyone else finds so compelling. I don't think I can quite handle it. It's just I'm a bit of a flower about it, really. It just gets in my head.
Cheryl Strayed (21:28):
And you find that that doesn't happen with books that are really capturing your interest, is that right?
Katherine May (21:34):
Every now and then. I mean, I do read nonfiction more than fiction and I think probably that's easier to set aside mostly. I mean, every now and then there's a novel that I have to sit up and see the whole thing through. I just can't ever put it down. But yeah, no, it's something about TV. Do you know what it is? I think I don't understand how the storytelling works. And I'm always trying to figure out, my writer's brain can't leave it alone. I'm like, "Well, how do they make this work? Because I don't really get what a script does. And what's this character doing?" And I'm still trying to unravel it at 2:00 in the morning when I really, really need to be asleep.
Cheryl Strayed (22:12):
Yeah. I'm constantly struggling with that particular issue with sleep. Not so much in relation to television, but really anything that sparks my interest or that I have on my mind, I just really... And I think that that this is a common plight for women in middle age, just the shutting off. There should be an off button on our brains and-
Katherine May (22:36):
If only.
Cheryl Strayed (22:38):
... I don't know, if you find it, please let me know because I would really like to press it each night at about 11:00.
Katherine May (22:42):
Cheryl.
Cheryl Strayed (22:42):
Yeah.
Katherine May (22:43):
I have not found it. That's not a plot spoiler.
Cheryl Strayed (22:48):
Well, if we found it, we would get very rich very quickly.
Katherine May (22:52):
We would. Yeah. There must be something. I mean, actually I've been writing about this lately because like everybody else I've suffered really badly from brain fog this year. And part of me was paranoid that it was my old lead pipes I had replaced, but everyone had a different explanation and some people said it was COVID and some people said it was menopause and I'm sure it was all of those things. But I can't help but think that as a middle aged woman, I'm holding so much in my brain all the time and it's no wonder it's all foggy because I've got this stupid minute to-do list that never goes down and never diminishes and yeah, everything's got jumbled.
Cheryl Strayed (23:39):
Yeah. I think one of the things I said, I used to do a podcast called Dear Sugars with Steve Almond and we were discussing the emotional labor that's put on most women in households, especially with kids. And I was telling a story about how my husband, who's just an incredibly... I mean, we have this very egalitarian marriage and he does more of the cleaning than I do, and more of a lot of things. We're very equal. And yet it's still true that I'm the one, all the information is in my brain, all the necessary information. And he will go to the grocery store and text me, constantly from the grocery store, "Do we need this? Do we need that? Should I get this? Should I get that?" And I got angry with him at one point and he said, "Well, just give me a list. I just need a list." And I said, "That's the difference between you and I, you need a list and I am the list."
Katherine May (24:35):
I'm the human list. Yeah. I know.
Cheryl Strayed (24:37):
I am the list. And people had t-shirts made for me that said I am the list. And I think that that is it, is of course some men listening to this will relate to it as well. So I don't mean to be excluding.
Katherine May (24:51):
Sure.
Cheryl Strayed (24:52):
But I do know a lot of women, especially women who are also mothers who feel this way, who they carry around, you and I have big careers that keep us very busy and yet we-
Katherine May (25:04):
Oh, we're fairly busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.
Cheryl Strayed (25:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Just a wee bit. And we still carry around, when do the kids need to go to the dentist, the doctor, when do they need to do their school-
Katherine May (25:16):
Oh, definitely.
Cheryl Strayed (25:16):
... stuff. When is this? And what do we need? And did you get the boots for this? And then the all the gear and the food and social calendar. All that stuff.
Katherine May (25:24):
I know.
Cheryl Strayed (25:24):
It feels overwhelming. So it's interesting when people talk about brain fog, you say you had brain fog. And what I can't tell for myself is if, either, A, I don't have brain fog, B, I have brain fog, but my brain is so foggy I don't even know I have it. Or C, it's I've all always been this way. Maybe I was born into a constant state of brain fog. I have no idea, but I don't feel that my brain feels different during this pandemic. I feel utterly exhausted and overwhelmed. And so maybe that's the same thing as brain fog.
Katherine May (26:09):
I'm just taking a pause to let you know about my very exciting new Patreon feed. If you love The Wintering Sessions and would like to help it grow, you can now become a patron. Subscribers will get an exclusive monthly podcast in which I talk about the books, culture and the news that are currently inspiring me. You'll also get the chance to submit questions to my guests in advance of recordings. And the answers will go into a special extended edition of the podcast that only patrons receive and a day early too. Plus you'll get discounts and early booking links to my courses and events. And your podcast will always be ad free.
Katherine May (26:51):
If this sounds like your kind of thing, I have a special offer. The first 30 patrons will be able to join at a discounted rate of $3 a month for life. So do get in early and help to build the community from the foundations. Go to patreon.com/katherinemay or follow the link in my bio to subscribe. And please don't worry if this isn't for you, the regular version of The Wintering Sessions will still be free, and I really appreciate your listens. Now back to the show. Tell me, what has the pandemic period been like for you? How's it been?
Cheryl Strayed (27:37):
It's been awful. It's been honestly a very difficult time in my life because when the pandemic hit... I have two teenagers. My daughter was 14, she's 16 now, my son had just turned 16. So they're teenagers. They're in ninth and 10th grade now, they're really in the-
Katherine May (27:55):
That's so hard for them.
Cheryl Strayed (27:56):
... heart of their teenage years. And they were moving from middle school into high school at the time that the pandemic hit. And now it's been long enough that they're like, "Okay, it's couple of years later." And to watch them struggle and to struggle with them, to have them during the time in their lives that they're really meant to be out and about with their peers and having all kinds of social experiences and-
Katherine May (28:17):
That incidentally involved touching each other too. That's such an important-
Cheryl Strayed (28:21):
Exactly.
Katherine May (28:21):
... part of being a teenager. Yeah, yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (28:23):
Exactly. Really. And yeah, exactly, like sexual experiences. I mean, your first kiss or whatever, that didn't happen because you had to always be six feet apart from somebody. I mean, they... And they had online school for more than a year and then now they're back in school, but they have to wear masks all day, which I agree with, I'm pro, wear the masks and be safe. And yet I think, "Okay, well, what's it like?" They're so glad to be back in school, but they have half of their faces covered. And this is just really, I think this pandemic has been most difficult on adolescents and probably people in the young 20s too, but certainly teenagers, that's already a hard time in life. And so to put that on them.
Cheryl Strayed (29:06):
And so, yeah, there have been all kinds of struggles that have happened with my kids that I've had to parent in such an intensive way. It's like having toddlers again in a strange way, in terms of the time I've needed to take to really mother. And so that's been hard and sad.
Katherine May (29:25):
And helping them to process something that we are all struggling to process ourselves. How do you put it into context for them? I mean, my son's younger, he's nine. And he said to me a couple of months ago, "I don't remember life before the pandemic. I've got a vague idea, but this is normal to me." And it broke my heart. What does that mean for him? What effect does that have in the long-term and what developmental stuff has been missed? And ah.
Cheryl Strayed (29:57):
I think we don't know yet, but it's going to be something. And the way too that it's now, it's just going on and on and on. I was just, before we started this conversation, I was doing a little bit of online Christmas shopping, my daughter sent me a list. And one of the things on her list were these really cute masks that she found on Etsy that I was buying for her. And I realised, "Oh, okay. Masks now are just like yeah. You need a shirt and you need pants and you need socks and you need a mask." This way of life has gone on long enough now that it's become strangely normalised, which is-
Katherine May (30:34):
It really has.
Cheryl Strayed (30:36):
... heartbreaking to me.
Katherine May (30:37):
And what does that mean? I mean, I also think that they've showed own incredible resilience and they've had the opportunity to show resilience that they would maybe not have been called for before. And I do think it's done some really good things for my son. I don't think that's true for all kids, but he has, as an only child who's maybe used to getting a lot of attention and used to being the centre of every story, it has made him more aware of other people. And I think there are some positives, but I am not willing to pretend that this is a good outcome for anyone. It's just grim. And the fact that it's all kicking off again at the moment is even grimmer.
Cheryl Strayed (31:17):
Yeah. Let's pretend that's not true. Just for another day or two.
Katherine May (31:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, by the time this is broadcast though we're going to be deep into it again or maybe not. Maybe it'll all-
Cheryl Strayed (31:31):
Maybe not.
Katherine May (31:31):
... blow over and we'll be fine.
Cheryl Strayed (31:33):
This is all just a dream we're waking up from a dream. The brain fog is lifting.
Katherine May (31:39):
Oh. Do you know what? My brain fog is finally lifting. I have to say it was a very distinct period. And as life has got more normal again, the fog has cleared, but there was a long time when I couldn't read, I couldn't focus on anything. I was just constantly distracted and looking over my shoulder. And that just felt like a huge loss amid all these other losses. It was like I didn't need to lose reading as well. Thank you very much. My comfort was gone. It was a funny time. So I mean, you are an advice giver, that's what you are completely amazing at and that's your... I mean, would you see it as a calling? It feels like it from the receiving end.
Cheryl Strayed (32:21):
That's interesting. Well, I think of writing as my calling. And what happened when I took on the Dear Sugar column and found that wow, I can do this. This is something that I committed myself deeply. I gave full throttle to that endeavour. And it what surprised me is it did seem, yes, okay so writing is my calling, but then this particular style of writing, these epistolary exchanges I have with people who write to me for advice and then my responses, aren't just, do this and do that, the typical agony aunt style, but rather essays on life and essays on what it means to be human. Yeah, in some ways it's almost like a crystallised or distilled form of my writing, which I think in my other work, in my other books, you can, I mean, I'm not writing them to give people advice, but you can find truth and meaning and inspiration the way we do on reading any book, really.
Katherine May (33:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (33:21):
But I guess, in some ways in Tiny Beautiful Things, my book that is the Dear Sugar collection, yeah, maybe it's my highest calling. That's a good way to put it.
Katherine May (33:32):
Well, what I love about it, I think is, I mean, A, the earthiness of your voice, it's so human, it's never superior. It's never coming from a place of knowledge that's being handed down, it's co-storytelling, which always feels to me like how we give advice in real life. We exchange it, we flow it between us. But I think that's in lots of way, what your writeriness gives you, you tell a story and those stories have you in them.
Cheryl Strayed (34:03):
Yeah. Well, and I started doing that because story is the thing that has been most consoling to me, most transformative to me when I have felt the lowest or the most confused or the most alone, I turn to books and I find myself there or not necessarily myself, I find that meaning there, the human experience. I find myself feeling connected to people across all divides. And so I try to offer that via telling stories about myself in the Dear Sugar column.
Katherine May (34:35):
Yeah. But that seems to me where your mindfulness resides as well. You are truly listening to people, but you are also unashamedly giving a response. You're not doctoring it to sanitise it or make it feel safe or make it feel like it's done by committee. You tell it fairly straight.
Cheryl Strayed (34:59):
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you write to me, you're going to get it intimate and raw. And by raw, I don't mean... I mean, obviously I labor over every sentence and every word and think deeply about it all, but I mean raw in terms of unvarnished. That is simply my style. It's my style as a person, and it's my style as a writer too, in whatever I'm writing. I've always found it most important to be as direct and plain spoken as possible. Also poetic, but in a pretty straight way. Yeah.
Katherine May (35:37):
Truth telling. Yeah. And that directness. And so, I mean, have you had an upswing in people writing over this time? Are people reaching out or is it about the same as normal? Do we run a standard level of crisis whatever is happening?
Cheryl Strayed (35:56):
Well, I think that's a great question. My sense is this, we are always having problems. We always will have problems and they are very... It's funny, if you look at my inbox, my Dear Sugar inbox, I make these little sub folders. And it's just, we have a pretty standard set of troubles. We have love and romance and sex problems. We have parenting problems. We have problems with infertility or with dysfunctional families or boundary setting, all that stuff. There's only a finite number of problems we have, but of course we experience them all originally. And it is true that specific problems arise in relation to the times.
Cheryl Strayed (36:42):
So I wrote the Dear Sugar column for a website called The Rumpus and those columns were collected in my book, Tiny Beautiful Things. But about this time last... And then I did a podcast, as I mentioned with, with Steve Almond, Dear Sugars. And then now a little more than a year ago, I decided to restart the Dear Sugar column as a Substack newsletter. So I do one Dear Sugar column a month. And what's been really interesting is, first of all, one of the reasons I restarted the column is that people were writing to me, even though I wasn't, at the time-
Katherine May (37:14):
We just like, "I need advice still."
Cheryl Strayed (37:15):
... writing the column, they were just like, "Dear Sugar, bring the podcast or the column back, please." And so they were writing to me and it's interesting because of course you would think, "Yeah, this is all about the pandemic." And I certainly have questions that are COVID related, without question, but in the United States, and I do have readers all over the world, but my letters from the United States, so many of them were about Trump and about-
Katherine May (37:43):
Oh, really? Wow.
Cheryl Strayed (37:44):
Yeah. And about the stress and the turmoil that really the political divisions that have really become so much more volatile here in the US. The impact that that was having on people's families. People were saying, "I love my mom, but she voted for Trump and how can I love her?" All those things. But also then just people feeling psychologically exhausted from feeling like that they have to fear for our nation because they're adults with... So it was really interesting. And that, now that Biden's in, those kinds of letters have simmered down.
Katherine May (38:23):
Oh, have they? Well, that's really good though.
Cheryl Strayed (38:25):
They have. They have. And now it's like a lot of the COVID stuff. I've had also some interesting letters about COVID because you mentioned that there are some silver linings to this pandemic, and one of the most interesting letters or a category of interesting letters I've received are from people who are differently abled in different ways. And actually the new way that we're communicating and having events and having gatherings, the new way that we're doing so many of those things online has allowed a lot of people to be included, who had been previously excluded, people who could never-
Katherine May (39:05):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Cheryl Strayed (39:05):
... travel to some retreat centre and take a writing workshop with so and so can now register, because it's all online or people can access and communicate in ways. So I think that that's pretty interesting. So one of my favourite letters, which I haven't answered yet is from a woman who's saying, "My life got a lot better because of the new ways we're communicating. And I don't want the pandemic to end. I'm sad people died." She wasn't saying she was-
Katherine May (39:31):
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (39:32):
... glad that... But she was-
Katherine May (39:32):
It's so brutal.
Cheryl Strayed (39:32):
... saying, "Can we please not all go all the way back to the way it was before because I have a better life?" Which is pretty interesting, huh?
Katherine May (39:41):
I agree. And I've heard it a lot from readers of Wintering who write to me and say very similar stuff, like actually during this time, I feel like I've finally had the rest I needed. I've cut down on a social life that in retrospect I can now see was destructive. Lots of people have stopped drinking for example or noticed addiction patterns that were maybe not visible because they were hidden by social life. Working from home has given them more time, they've walked more, they've been in more contact with nature. They have spent more time with their kids. And I think there's a huge number of people who either are using this in a really positive way as a springboard to affect change that they probably needed to make for years. But I think lots of other people are feeling a lot of fear at this point that they don't want it to end because the changes have been positive and they don't know how to carry that on into the future.
Cheryl Strayed (40:38):
Right. And yeah, I was just listening on the radio the other day to this story saying basically so many people who had been going to the office five days a week now they're just saying, "I won't. I won't do that anymore. I'm not going to commute every day. I might commute one or two days, but the rest of the time I'm going to stay home." Which is pretty interesting. I mean, I do think... I'll be fascinated to see, 20 years from now if we'll look back and say, "Okay, this is when our relationship to employment changed around the globe."
Katherine May (41:11):
I mean, I'm a world optimist and I can't help myself, but I'm excited by a lot of it. I think even the really terrible stuff has maybe been good for us a little bit. Not in like a oh, there's a silver lining in every cloud, because I hate that stuff. I'm really grumpy about that stuff. But in the sense that actually it's brought us in contact with death and what death means and the inevitability of it and the sheer monstrous rock face that it actually has always represented in our lives.
Katherine May (41:47):
And I don't think that's a bad thing for us to confront that because we've been able to avoid looking it in the eye for such a long time. And I think that, yeah, we've done some reflection as a society about what life is and how we want to live it. And I really think that's going to express itself in work. And that's why lots of people-
Cheryl Strayed (42:09):
Yeah I do too.
Katherine May (42:10):
... in government are sounding so anxious about trying to get people back into the office. I mean, I don't know if that's the same discourse for you guys, but our prime minister is obsessed with it. I don't know. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (42:21):
Absolutely. But you and I like that. You and I, we have both always... I mean, I'm just reading your book again, like I said, when I read Wintering, this time last year, I recognised you as a kindred spirit in a couple of ways. As I mean, a woman, a mother all that stuff. But somebody who really finds the glimmer in the darkness and that there's so much that grows. I mean, we think we need light to grow, but we also need darkness to flourish. And there's so many treasures that can be found there. And I do think that part of that is obviously I write about this all the time is Dear Sugar. I'm constantly saying like that there are so many important, beautiful lessons we can learn from the dark times, from the dark experiences.
Cheryl Strayed (43:14):
I even, I refer my father who's dead now. He was not a good father. He was an abusive person, a really menacing figure in my life. But I really, I call him my dark teacher. I value what he gave me in his darkness. I wouldn't have asked for it. I didn't want it. I don't wish it upon anyone, and yet I can also acknowledge that it's part of what formed me and made me who I am.
Katherine May (43:41):
I mean, it seems to me that in a very real sense, you couldn't do what you do now without that incredibly traumatic past that you lived through. So many different traumas, but without saying, "Oh, that was fine though," because that is not the same. Instead, the thing is that it lets you go out and give service in a way that is extraordinary and which obviously thousands and thousands of people are really, not just grateful for, but dependent on, they need it. And when you stopped that they felt the lack of it. I mean, that's quite an extraordinary thing to offer to the world, I think.
Cheryl Strayed (44:20):
Thank you.
Katherine May (44:20):
In beautiful prose, incidentally.
Cheryl Strayed (44:22):
Yeah. When I was younger, and I've always been a political activist and so forth, but when I was younger, I felt like, "Okay, I'm a writer, but I'm also, I've got to do all this activism to actually make an impact." And as I've moved into middle age again, it's not that it's all or nothing. I do some activism, but what I've realised is the positive impact I can actually have, that does have in the end, I think political consequences is to write and to write books that make people see themselves and others with more compassion, to see themselves more clearly, to be more honest and transparent about who they are and what they want and what they fear.
Cheryl Strayed (45:07):
And I think that that, I know that that changes the world because I've been changed by literature. And I do think that that's my contribution. And as far as it... And you're right, I think that some of the... I've had traumatic experiences and to turn those dark things into things that offer other people light has been a very powerful act for me. It's been healing to me to do that as well.
Katherine May (45:33):
Yeah. Yeah. It deepens our experience of this life. Ah, Cheryl, it's so lovely to talk to you. I want to ask one final thing, which is the classic question, what are you working on at the moment? What are we going to see next from you?
Cheryl Strayed (45:47):
Well, I have been... I mean, that's another thing, the pandemic, I do a lot of public speaking. I travel, give talks. And suddenly all of that came to a screeching halt, which I took a financial hit for that, but I was also-
Katherine May (46:01):
Oh, sure.
Cheryl Strayed (46:01):
... like "Okay, get back," I mean, it's not that I had stopped writing. I was not writing as much because I was busy doing so many other things. And what's been really cool is to just have done a lot of new projects during the pandemic. I was hired to write a screenplay. I can't say yet-
Katherine May (46:22):
Ooh.
Cheryl Strayed (46:22):
... what the screenplay's about, but it's about a famous woman we all know, she's dead and I'm right now writing the last revision of that, and it's going to come into the world and then I'll able to announce it, I hope. And so I've been really learning a new form, which has been really cool to really... I had written some scripts before, but I was pretty new in that whole world. So I've become a screenwriter over the last year and-
Katherine May (46:53):
Well, congratulations.
Cheryl Strayed (46:56):
... I'm working on my next book. Thank you.
Katherine May (46:57):
Wow.
Cheryl Strayed (46:57):
And I'm working on my next book, which is a memoir and really, ugh, just feeling so much. I'm like, "I got to get it done." It's way overdue. But I'm trying to do all the mindfulness things and not get freaked out and feel terribly ashamed and full of self loathing which is a challenge.
Katherine May (47:14):
I don't think anyone's been on time with anything this year. I really think it's okay. If there's ever been a time when you can be late with stuff, it's now. How can you get stuff done? I don't know it's hard.
Cheryl Strayed (47:25):
I don't know. Brain fog.
Katherine May (47:28):
You're going to have to stop blaming brain fog, if you don't have it.
Cheryl Strayed (47:29):
But you've got to tell me, see, how do I know? So is it one of those things if you... I mean, how do I know I have brain fog? I don't...
Katherine May (47:37):
I think it's not being able to access the thoughts that you're meaning to have. For me, it feels like there's a veil between the front end of my brain and the back end and I've lost access between them.
Cheryl Strayed (47:49):
So it's like you've had three glasses of wine?
Katherine May (47:51):
It is. Honestly, sometimes it is like being really drunk, like maybe three Martinis instead, not just wine. And that classic middle aged woman thing of walking into a room and not knowing what you're doing, but writ large and-
Cheryl Strayed (48:07):
Right. Okay.
Katherine May (48:09):
... I still get halfway through a sentence and I'm like, "Oh, no, I can't remember what I was saying." I've become the world's worst anecdotalist. I am embarrassing at dinner parties now. I start talking, I'm like, "Oh, it was a book written by this person. I can't remember the person or the book. And actually, now I think of it. I don't know what they said, but oh, it was really interesting. I was dying to tell you about it guys."
Cheryl Strayed (48:33):
Okay. So maybe I'm the only middle aged woman who has escaped brain fog.
Katherine May (48:37):
Well, this is great. This is what you should be writing about. How I did it.
Cheryl Strayed (48:45):
Yeah. There we go. We ended up talking about brains a lot, for the button, the off button and then the fog button. We need a little.
Katherine May (48:55):
There's an innovation brewing somewhere, isn't there? Oh, if only we could figure it out.
Cheryl Strayed (49:02):
Oh, it's really great to talk to you. And I'm such a fan of your work.
Katherine May (49:06):
Oh. And obviously it's mutual.
Cheryl Strayed (49:08):
And we haven't... Here we are on the cusp of winter we talk. We're about to-
Katherine May (49:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cheryl Strayed (49:13):
... officially enter into winter.
Katherine May (49:16):
It's just begun. Meteorological winter starts today. We're talking on the 1st of December. So yeah, this is the day. This is the day it all happens. I'm excited.
Cheryl Strayed (49:26):
Perfect. Me too.
Katherine May (49:29):
I'm thrilled by it, but yeah, no. Well, I think probably everyone's heard enough of me talking about winter for a while. So I think that's probably okay. I've heard enough of me talking about winter. Cheryl, thank you so, so much. And I'm looking forward to talking to you again really soon.
Cheryl Strayed (49:45):
Yes. Thank you, Katherine. It's such a pleasure to chat with you. I could talk to you for hours. We got to go on a long walk together someday. I hope that happens.
Katherine May (49:54):
We absolutely have to. We have to introduce each other to each other's landscapes. That would be amazing.
Cheryl Strayed (49:59):
Amazing.
Katherine May (49:59):
A bit into the woods now. Hopefully I won't see too many more dog walkers. There's so many people about today. It's the time of year when we're all trying to drink in light. My dog is slightly intimidated by the whole thing. All these other dogies running around. I'm really late with all the Christmas stuff this year. Rather foolishly I've been having some work done on my house really needed doing, before the bathroom floor fell through. I think I needed to avoid that. But it means that, whereas I normally try and have a lovely, quiet December, my December has been really busy and really chaotic. I don't deal well with chaos. I don't deal well with not being able to sit quietly at my desk and be in my own head. That's so important to me. So it's been quite challenging.
Katherine May (51:08):
And what it means is that I'm late with everything. My tree isn't up, my decorations aren't up. Everything feels very unfestive. But then actually I'm quite looking forward to getting them all set up late in a way. I know lots of people don't bring their tree in until mid-winter or until Christmas Eve. I've always got mine up at the beginning of December to maximize the benefit and justify the effort that it takes. But this year I'll dress the house for Christmas and we'll have Christmas. And probably take them down again on 12th night. I'm curious about what that'll be like. I sometimes think the feverish build up to that big celebration is too much. You're exhausted by the time it comes. I know it's true for my son. It's too much for him, too much for me too. So anyway, I'll let you know how I get on.
Katherine May (52:08):
I want to say a massive thank you to Cheryl. As you could tell, I really enjoyed that conversation. Hope I didn't sound too much like a fan girl trying to be like a grown up on a podcast. But it was great to talk. And if you haven't come across all of her many wonderful presences online, you've been missing out and there are links in the show notes. And do read Wild. It's brilliant. I've yet to watch the film. I didn't want to, because I love the book so much. That's why, don't spoil it for me, but I hear it's very good. Maybe we need a watch along in the Patreon community. That could be quite fun, actually. I will make that happen.
Katherine May (52:54):
Thank you to my producer, Buddy Peace, who also composed the lovely theme music and who puts up with a lot of to-ing and fro-ing from me while I mis-record introductions and things like that. And thanks to Meghan Hutchins who holds the whole thing together, not just the show, but most of my life, it seems. And thank you for listening. If you love the podcast, do check out the Patreon link. I would love to build a really strong community there. We're having fun already and you get a little bit extra from me should you enjoy ramblings like this. Take care of everyone. Keep warm. There'll be a new podcast in just a couple of weeks and I'll see you then. Bye for now. (Silence).
Show Notes
Welcome to the Wintering Sessions with Katherine May.
This week Katherine chats to Cheryl Strayed, author of ‘Wild’ and so many more.
A luxurious chat from the beginning til the end, this is a wonderful chance to get to know Cheryl a little better and hear the voice behind the books. It’s a true comfort, which folds in everything from the power of walking and what it can do to you, the unfinished walk, the male narrative and damage on all sides, finding the ‘off’ button for our brains and whether such a thing is achievable, brainfog, her ‘Dear Sugar’ advice columns and discovering the human ‘standard set of problems’, and not being scared by the wilderness in which she grew. Lovely, and nourishing too.
Quick note: Katherine mentioned heliotropic breathwork, which she immediately noted was 'holotropic' - just in case you pick up on that!
We talk about:
The power of walking and what it can do to you
The unfinished walk
The male narrative and damage on all sides
Finding the ‘off’ button for our brains and whether such a thing is achievable
Brainfog
Her ‘Dear Sugar’ advice columns and discovering the human ‘standard set of problems’
Not being scared by the wilderness in which she grew
Links from this episode:
Cheryl’s Website
Cheryl’s Twitter
Cheryl’s Instagram
Cheryl’s Sugar Calling Podcast
Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!
To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack
For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School
Wintering is out now in the UK, and the US.
