Jennifer Pastiloff on the power of 'I Got You'
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Jennifer Pastiloff on the power of 'I Got You'
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This week Katherine chats to Jennifer Pastiloff, a speaker, teacher, and author of ‘On Being Human’. In a warm and honest chat with Katherine, Jennifer perfectly lays the table for where she finds herself at this point in time, as a yoga instructor, public speaker and best selling author.
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Listen to the Episode
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Katherine May:
Well, hi everyone. Welcome to the new season of The Wintering Sessions. We are ringing the changes a little bit this season. I'm going to talk to you a bit more, because well, I thought it would be nice to take you out with me. I'm on the beach at the moment. The tide's low. It's early afternoon. The sun's low already. I know you guys all love to hear the seagulls, but actually out by the tide line, there's a couple who are feeding seagulls for reasons I don't fully understand and the seagull are mobbing them. So it's quite entertaining to watch. Anyway, rather them than me, they're vicious, the seagulls - never cross a seagull.
Katherine May:
So, I'm thinking this week really about how to make it through the winter. It's been really dark and cold quite suddenly, very windy, quite tricky to make it through those days without feeling a bit dreary. That's a really loud seagull. So I've been doing my thing that I do to manage those dark cold days. I've been getting ready for the rest of the season. I've started pickling a few things and in fact, quite excitingly, I've made a fermented cranberry sauce ready for Christmas. It's looking very pretty in the jar. I don't know if it will taste disgusting. I'll let you know. I've also made membrillo, the quince paste that goes really well with cheese. Turned out the wrong color. I don't know why. Anyway, I did it. And with the peels and the cores of the quinces, I'm trying to make quince vinegar, all of which makes me sound incredibly homely. And I should really tell you that my house is a complete tip amid all of this.
Katherine May:
Oh my God. The people being attacked by the seagulls are screaming now. I really don't know if I should rescue them. But yeah, I'm not a domestic goddess, but I do find it very soothing to cook, to process things, to bring in all those really beautiful winter vegetables and to spend some time chopping them and simmering them and stewing them down. I don't know. I find it really comforting. So that's what I've been up to. And also, I keep reminding myself to drink in this light while it's here. The sun goes down so early and it comes up so late. The nights are really long now. So I'm reminding myself to get out. It's so easy to not leave my desk. I have a little note above my desk on a post-it note that says, 'go for a walk'. And sometimes I remember to look at it and get out like this.
Katherine May:
Anyway, I want to tell you about this week's podcast. I'm talking to the brilliant Jen Pastiloff, who I think you'll love. She's so warm and wise. And we had, what for me was a really interesting conversation about the link between shame and the fear of not being understood, which she understands because of her deafness and I understand because of my autism. I think it's a different perspective on those things than maybe we hear sometimes. Anyway, I'm sure you'll let me know what you think. And I'll be pausing in the middle of the podcast to tell you about a new phase for this podcast, I suppose, which is that I'm starting a Patreon to support it. I'll tell you all about it in the middle. So please do listen up. It'll definitely help us to carry on just doing interviews that with such brilliant people. Anyway, enjoy.
Katherine May:
Jen, welcome to The Wintering Sessions. We tried for this one last time, but I have a little introduction for you in mind because I've slightly altered this season of the podcast. I used to get people to talk about a time in their life when they'd wintered and I want to make it bigger this season. I want us to talk about how to survive winter and just share what we know, like this amazing toolkit for life people have. I mean, I still want all the anecdotes. Absolutely. But I just want it to get bigger in terms of what we are talking about. So I wanted to tell everyone in case they haven't met you yet that you are a writer, a public speaker, a yoga teacher, like a kind of master of the retreats. And I watch your retreats come past on Instagram and I think they look amazing.
Jen Pastiloff:
You forgot weirdo. Yeah.
Katherine May:
I was going to slowly get round to that.
Jen Pastiloff:
Okay. Okay.
Katherine May:
And get it politely under the carpet later.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. You're British. I know. It's like, we'll get that in later.
Katherine May:
We're not very direct. But also, your book on being human is about so many different winters, isn't it, I guess? It's about losing your father. It's about being deaf. It's about anxiety and depression and eating disorders and being a waitress, but it's also about you as like a holder of people. I think that's-
Jen Pastiloff:
Ooh, I think I like that. I'm going to write that.
Katherine May:
That's kind of what you are, isn't it? You are a holder of people and you are a very heart on sleeve, no bullshit person. And that's what I'm saying by way of welcome. Like anyone who's those people is welcome to my podcast.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's funny, lately I wonder if my Prozac isn't as effective anymore because I notice usually I'm emotionally constipated. I can't cry. And lately I well up. So it's a good thing. It's a good feeling.
Katherine May:
I think that is a post-pandemic thing. I think I want to cry about everything since the pandemic. Like kitten-
Jen Pastiloff:
Do you cry easily?
Katherine May:
Yeah. Kitten videos and I'm off right now.
Jen Pastiloff:
I just, I miss it. It's like, it's not that I don't feel it. It's just part of the meds, and it's fine. It's the, what do you want to call it?
Jen Pastiloff:
Look, I can't function off them, so this is what I deal with. But I can't emote, but I miss that. I get envious when I see someone who can just cry so easily.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
But being seen, and I think you understand this, I've read your books, there's nothing like it to really feel like you're seen.
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jen Pastiloff:
And so thank you, because I feel like you've seen me. You get me. I think that's why we get on. From, I don't even remember how we first... I don't know.
Katherine May:
Yeah. We were doing an event. I can't remember what it was for though. I was trying to think of that. I did so many events, but I remember talking to you, but I don't remember who we were-
Jen Pastiloff:
First, okay, I was a fan girling. Your book came out and blew up over here, Wintering. And it became, I think unexpected, right? Like big.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And it was just the timing. Of course you planned the pandemic so that the book would work, and well done.
Katherine May:
Sorry, everyone. Sorry about the pandemic.
Jen Pastiloff:
And so I knew and I was like, oh, like that book just called to me because all my life I've been a depressive. All my life has been like, oh, you're so serious. In winter I've always felt a darkness. And my birthday's in December. I just associate it and I was like, oh, this book is calling to me. And I read it and it's a poem. It's a poem. It's just so beautiful. And so of course I was in awe of you. And yeah, I stalked you online and then I got asked to do a thing for One Grand Books. I think that's what it was through the Soho House, which sounds fancy. It sounds like, okay.
Katherine May:
That's what it was. Yes. Yeah. It was really fancy because there were breakout rooms and stuff. It was really well organised, and yeah. And we got to have a chat while everyone was in a breakout room, which was really cool.
Jen Pastiloff:
And it was short. And we started talking and I was like, oh, we need to talk more. And I also saw a lot of myself when I was reading Wintering, the ways you speak about motherhood. And I was like, oh man. And there was just a lot of you're definitely smarter than me, and you have a cuter accent and I think you're more organised, but there's so many similarities that it's such a feeling. I know it's tricky sometimes when we read someone's book and we're like, we'd be best friends. I'm sure you get that all the time.
Katherine May:
Yeah. And don't know where to put it.
Jen Pastiloff:
But if you read something and you go, oh. Like, oh, I feel like I'm reading, I'm again, that feeling of being seen.
Katherine May:
I think that really straightforward people are really attracted to each other. What I find very difficult about people is when they dance around a subject and they don't want to talk about anything face on. And you're constantly wondering about what you shouldn't say to them and what can't be mentioned and-
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
Whatever. You and I are both people that are like, right, here we go. We're not going to do small talk. We're going to straight into this. It's like, I love-
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. And I don't know, I just fell in love with you when I read your book, and then when I met you. And I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah. She's my people. And you're weird enough, like I'm so weird.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I mean, I say that so lovingly, because really I don't trust anyone that's not weird. But you-
Katherine May:
I only like weird people.
Jen Pastiloff:
You own it. And your memoir, which I believe you wrote before Wintering?
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah, before Wintering. Electricity of Every Living Thing. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
A reckoning with like-
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jen Pastiloff:
And owning it.
Katherine May:
A reckoning with the weirdnesses you know about and the weirdnesses that you can only perceive from other people's reaction to you.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
That's what it was like writing that book. But anyway, my UK audience would be vomiting right now because we're being too nice to each other. So we've got to start being a bit meaner to each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They won't be able to handle this.
Jen Pastiloff:
So I was going to say this before we recorded and I said, let me wait. So right now I'm alone with my son. And he's actually being amazing, I think because I told him I was talking to Santa later.
Jen Pastiloff:
But he still sleeps with me. And my husband's not here. And so normally I sleep without my hearing aids in, which means I'm deaf. Now I don't worry because my husband wakes me up. Human alarm clock. Thank you, Robert. But when he is not here, it's stressful because I have to sleep with my hearing aids in.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And here's an aside, I just partner with a hearing aid company, which is very exciting. Yeah. I got a free pair of hearing aids-
Katherine May:
wow.
Jen Pastiloff:
Which are like $7,000 and getting paid.
Katherine May:
Oh my God.
Jen Pastiloff:
I mean, I'm an influencer.
Katherine May:
Oh, wow.
Jen Pastiloff:
But it's really, it's a dream. So these are loud. But sleeping with them is not comfortable. It's like when my head touches something and there's feedback.
Katherine May:
Yeah. It's like sleeping with your glasses on or whatever.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. I never want to sleep with them, but sometimes I have to. If I'm alone, like in a hotel room, I have no way to wake up. The alarm clock, it streams through my hearing aids. So if I'm alone with Charlie now he doesn't have school this week. But I looked, I thought our thing was later and it was eight o'clock in the morning. And I thought, shit, because I would have to sleep with my hearing aids. I mean, it's a whole thing, but it's not even that I couldn't get up. It's the anxiety around the idea of it, right?
Katherine May:
I have exactly the same thing if I've got to get up. Yeah. I will wake all night if I know I've got to get-
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes.
Katherine May:
I mean I get up early every morning, but if I know I've got to get up, I'll be awake every half an hour. It's terrible.
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, I knew you did because it'll be nine o'clock here, we're texting. I'm like, why is this wacko up so early in England? But anyway, so I'm grateful that you switched it and I was able to sleep without my hearing aids, which makes it a lot easier to sleep. Yeah. So back to the Wintering, I mean, I just love that as a verb too, I guess. Is that a verb? Yeah.
Katherine May:
It's always good to invent a new verb. Why not? Let's just bring new verbs in. While we're there, let's talk about your deafness because it took you a long time to realise and accept that, didn't it? What was going on in your mind in those weeks and months when you knew really that you were deaf, but you didn't really want to go there? What was that like for you?
Jen Pastiloff:
It's so great you're asking. I just haven't been writing. I guess I've been in a wintering mode in that. And there's a lot of shame around that. And I started writing again and I wrote a piece yesterday. I don't know what's going to happen with it, but talking a lot about that, these new hearing aids, Katherine, I could hear my son's voice. I never heard it before.
Katherine May:
Oh, wow.
Jen Pastiloff:
I mean, so it's really moving and it's bringing up a lot to think back on this. I created a movement. A movement, I sound so arrogant. I created a movement folks called shame loss instead of weight loss, let's talk shame loss. And the reason is because so much of my life was spent hiding from shame. I was so ashamed of my hearing loss. And what I want to say to people is do not try to rationalise shame because I've had people be like, I don't understand. Why would you be ashamed of that? It's like, shame isn't rational. Okay.
Jen Pastiloff:
When I was a child and I used to concentrate, colour or write or whatever, I'd make this awful sound, like a droning noise. And people made fun of me, so I stopped doing it. I was like, ugh, and I never talked about it. As I got older and I began to really notice my hearing was going, I began to get, I was really terrified. And a few things happened. I thought one, if I don't talk about it, if I don't acknowledge it, it'll go away. Friends listening, that doesn't happen.
Katherine May:
No. Deafness famously doesn't tend to go away.
Jen Pastiloff:
No, but I still as an adult, a grown ass adult, I still grapple with that.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Maybe if I avoid this, it'll just disappear. So anyway, I was like if I don't name it, it'll go away. And I was scared. I was scared if it's like this now and I'm 20 or whatever, then what's it going to be like when I'm 40. And I thought I was broken. I already had a narrative in my head that I was a bad person because my dad died when I was eight after I yelled, "I hate you," to him. And he said, "You're being bad." I said, "I hate you." He dropped dead. I said, "Oh, it's my fault. I killed my father."
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
So I'm a bad person and now I'm broken. So there's all this stuff, right? So I'm in acting school in my early twenties. And that's when I really started to notice it. Now it's funny, because if I think back at NYU, I always sat in the front. I always had to sit in the front. And I think-
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Gosh, there's all these things I did. And people are always like, "You don't pay attention." There's all this lifetime of stuff. And I'm like, oh my God, that's because I couldn't hear.
Katherine May:
Those links that we make are so, I mean, it's so interesting to me because I think it's really similar to me discovering I was autistic and the idea that, oh, I can maybe just try covering this up for longer. I can cover up my profound difference and the profound ways I'm struggling in life. And when I read back Electricity now, I can see some of the stuff that I was still concealing in there that I didn't want to say at the time because I felt ashamed of it. And it's only after looking up other autistic-
Jen Pastiloff:
I think that's really important though.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Now you can see it's really important that you documented that because that's how we see... I have chills right now. That's how we go, wow, that's growth. And wow, I'm human. And it gives other people, I don't know, hope, right? Go, oh look-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I was still grappling with shame there.
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's amazing. But sometimes you don't even realise you're ashamed.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes.
Katherine May:
Like it's so ingrained and it's so, I feel like modern life is like a training ground for shame almost. Everybody is ashamed of something and it's rarely that they've murdered someone and the body's buried in their backyard. It's like-
Jen Pastiloff:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Katherine May:
They're ashamed because their feet look weird or it's stuff.
Jen Pastiloff:
That's it, right? And that's why I say it's not logical, so don't even try. It's funny because as we're speaking, I'm like, oh, my next round of shame loss, usually it's like three. I want you to be a guest. I pay you. I had Paulina Porizkova come in April with me, she's a supermodel, and talk about shame around ageing and stuff. But definitely now that I'm talking to you, it's about deafness and autism. And so I hope you'll say yes.
Katherine May:
Of course I'll say yes.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. It's great, and really it's generative, it's collaborative. It's really a beautiful-
Katherine May:
[crosstalk 00:17:23].
Jen Pastiloff:
Beautiful people who show up. In my twenties I was an acting class and I was like, oh my God, I started noticing I couldn't hear. And I started panicking and again, denying it. And I remember one Thanksgiving in my twenties, I was at a friends. We were doing a Friendsgiving, whatever you call it. And in the States, when you get together with your friends and not your family. And my friends basically had an intervention with me.
Katherine May:
Oh, wow.
Jen Pastiloff:
They were like, "You need to go to the audiologist, Jen." And I was crying and they were like, "We'll go with you." And I finally was like, "Okay." And then we never followed through. I blew it off. Yeah. And it, and it kept getting worse and worse, and I just denied, denied. Finally, after waitressing 13.5 years at the same joint and I did the yoga teacher training, when I was in yoga teacher training and the teacher would say close your eyes for this meditation, the panic would set in. And I finally-
Katherine May:
Yeah, because you weren't sure you could hear it to... Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I admitted it. I was like, I can't hear. And the way my shoulders shut down, the relief of that, I was like, wow. And it was the first time I said it out loud. And then the teacher started really taking care of me, making sure...
Katherine May:
Right.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I thought, oh, wait a minute. Oh my God. Look how much easier my life could be. So I finally wrote a blog. I had been so ashamed and I was like, I would never wear hearing aids. When I was a kid-
Katherine May:
Right.
Jen Pastiloff:
They were huge and there was such a stigma. And I think there still is. I wrote this blog, a silly blog. I basically was like, okay, finally, I'm over the shame. If only I could afford them. And somebody that took my yoga class read it and got me a pair of donated. When I went to the audiologist, I realised first of all, it's like, okay, you have no hearing. And it's way worse now. This was when I was, 11 years ago now. I mean, I was in my mid thirties when I got hearing aids. But when I went and I realised I have tinnitus. I have terrible tinnitus, which is ringing all the time. I never do not have it. So going back to that sound I made as a child, it broke me when I realised, oh my God, I've had it whole life.
Katherine May:
Yeah, that it was already there.
Jen Pastiloff:
I was mimicking the sound in my head and I got shamed for it. So I never talked about it. I never said like, "Hey, does anyone..." I just got used to it. And I'll say now, sometimes it still gives me terrible anxiety. I've gotten pretty used to it. My threshold for pain is really high. I'm not so proud of that, but part of it is learning how to deal and live with something like-
Katherine May:
You cover stuff up. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I'm going to shut the door, like tinnitus, because it's maddening, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's maddening.
Katherine May:
It is. But do you know what I mean? Because I've had tonight all my life as well. I had hearing problems when I was a child and now I have Ménière's disease, which-
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
It causes constant feedback in my ears.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
And if someone slams a door across the other side of the building, I feel it vibrate. And there are [crosstalk 00:20:29]-
Jen Pastiloff:
So you get it.
Katherine May:
That are painful. I absolutely get it. I mean, obviously my hearing is not as effective as yours. But the parallels for me with getting an autism diagnosis, there's two things that link deafness and autism. And one is, it is the thing that you don't want to have as a younger person. Like it's not going to go on your dating profile. You're terrified that people won't love you or find you attractive or find you interesting or fun because you're burdened with this thing. But the other thing is it affects something that I think is really important to you and I, which is listen to people and hearing them and conversing with them. And the huge fear for me when I learned I was autistic was that I didn't want people to think that I was not a listener, not like an interactive person because-
Jen Pastiloff:
I know it's awful, right?
Katherine May:
That awful stereotype is out there and it's not true. And yeah, it's that idea that you might be someone who doesn't hear and doesn't listen and isn't fully present in the conversation, which is so important to me. And I found that idea devastating, and it wasn't true. That was a stupid thing. I knew.
Jen Pastiloff:
You're preaching to the choir because, oh man, we could talk so much about this. This is why I'm excited to have you in shame loss, now that we're really getting into this. That was always what people said to me. And I'll tell you what, the irony now is I've built a career out of listening and I'm really proud of that. Like I'm deaf, small D deaf.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
A bit different than capital D deaf, which is deaf culture. Usually there's no sound. They communicate with ASL and sign language. I've made a career at a listening as a deaf lady. That's really cool.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
But I've always been really good listener. And so the fact that people had that perception of me that either I wasn't a good listener or a snob or entitled, or all the things. And people are human, we all do it. We make up stories. I don't present as a deaf person. They don't look at you and think of the idea we have of what autism looks like, right?
Katherine May:
No, that's right. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Oh. So they're like, she's just elitist or she's just-
Katherine May:
Well, arrogant, aloof. They're the stuff that I used to get when actually, my social cues were just different. And it used to just devastate me because I was always the person in the room trying the hardest to be nice and make everyone feel welcome. And still, it was being read as standoffishness and it drove me crazy.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's hard. And it's like, I was writing this essay yesterday and talking about again, I feel like you and I have so many overlaps here, but I always felt like I'm on the outside, just slightly.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I still do. I still do if I'm telling the truth.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Not right now and not when I'm the leader, which is why I'm really fucking good. I am. But when I'm vulnerable, when I'm in a group or I'm not... So if I'm the leader, if I'm leading a class, maybe you'll come to my workshop in London, you'll see people share. And I will scoot in really close. I won't get too close. I won't touch you, but-
Katherine May:
We've already had that negotiation.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. But I know your boundary and I'm serious. Like I won't make you uncomfortable.
Katherine May:
Same. I have promised you a truly awkward half hug, and I just think that's great. I think you should go with that offer.
Jen Pastiloff:
No, for sure. But I just mean like, I'm going to respect your boundaries.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
But I have to get in close to hear.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I don't want to do that if you're leading a class. I don't just get up, but when I'm leading the class, I could do whatever I want.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
But like in a group dinner or any, I find myself so often excusing myself or looking at my phone, not because I'm a snob, not because I'm addicted to the phone, which I am, but because I can't keep up. I can't navigate, and it's exhausting. And then the how stupid I feel all the time. What? Huh? Huh?
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
What are you talking about? And it's exhausting.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah. And you have to do the big social act around making other people feel okay with your disability.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes. Oh my God, yes.
Katherine May:
You have to feather bed it for them because I can often only, particularly in busy environments, I can only often hear out of my right ear. So I often have to turn to one side and I think some people think I'm turning away from them, but I'm trying to trying to hear them.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's funny too, like constantly the example I always think of is coffee shops where they're taking your order and they'll say something and I'll go... They'll say like, "What's your name?" And I'll say, "Pardon?" And they'll say, "What's your name?" As if I was just checked out. And granted, sometimes I say it to kind of go, grr. I go, "Oh, I'm deaf." And a lot of times I apologise, which I hate, but I'll go, "Oh, I'm deaf. I read lips." They have a mask on, let's say. And then they go, "I'm so sorry." I go, "It's okay. You wouldn't know." And then it's this whole weird apology. Now, I do think there's a, I won't say lesson. That sounds sort of preachy, but I'm always reminded of just compassion and patience. Like we don't know. We don't know. And it's easy to just assume, oh, this person, oh, this person.
Katherine May:
It's so true. And do you know what, actually? I've become more compassionate for understanding how I'm received actually. It makes me often just deliberately stop and think, oh, maybe this person isn't being rude.
Jen Pastiloff:
Right.
Katherine May:
Shall I tell you as story that will make you really laugh? I did an event the other week, a live event and it was like living through an anxiety dream. Check in with all of this and see if it makes you anxious just hearing it. So we go online for the sound check and they say to me, "What we want you to do, Katherine is have one earphone in to listen to the interviewer. And then we want you to have your phone on speaker, so we can talk to you at the same time." And I was like, "I'm not going to be able to handle that. I'm not going to be able to handle two people talking to me at once." And they were like, "Well, TV presenters do it." And I was like, "Yeah, but I'm not a TV presenter."
Jen Pastiloff:
Exactly.
Katherine May:
And I said, "So anyway, won't that feed back?" And they were like, "No, no, it won't feed back." And I was like, "Because if it feed feeds back, I have this problem with my ears and it'll be really, really painful and I will not be able to deal with it." "It won't feed back. Please try it." Turn the phone on, you can just imagine the feedback loop from this two.... It was hideous. So I turned it off and I was like, "I can't do this. I can't do this." And they're like, "Okay, fine. So when we dial in, we won't do it like that. And I guess we'll just have to text you."
Katherine May:
And I felt terrible for I had to really assert my needs.
Jen Pastiloff:
Right, like you failed.
Katherine May:
And they were like, "The other writer was doing it earlier." And it was really dreadful. They were being so nice, but they didn't realise it was mean. Anyway, so we log on later and they immediately text to say, "Can you put your speakerphone on?" I was like, "No, I can't. We've already agreed." "Well, we'll try and text you stuff." I like, "Okay." Got 20 minutes into the interview and their end internet started cutting out. And for the final 25 minutes of the live broadcast, I had to just present alone with them texting going, "Keep going. It's fine." Is that not like an anxiety dream that's come down?
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. That literally is like my dream I have every night of I'm still in school failing my math test. Yeah, total.
Katherine May:
So I'm just pausing mid podcast to tell you a bit about my new Patreon, which I'm really excited to launch. I've been trying to think for a long time how to make this podcast sustainable, and this will really, really help us to keep making more episodes. I am always telling other people how it's really good to let everyone else help them. And so, I guess I'm taking a bit of my own medicine here.
Katherine May:
The brilliant thing that the Patreon feed lets me do is to make an extra special bonus episode just for subscribers once a month, which will go out on the Patreon feed. And in that you'll get a bit more of me. If you're sick of the sound of my voice, then maybe this isn't for you. But if you're not, then I'll be talking about the things that are inspiring me at the moment, the books I'm reading, the culture I'm absorbing, the news stories. Everything that I'm taking in, I'm going to share with you on that. It'll be really chatty and fun, but I'll also be inviting questions from the Patreon community that I'll answer in the podcast. So it'll give you the chance to, I don't know, tell me stuff, ask me questions, give me problems to solve. See if I can help. I'm a bit of an advice giver. It's maybe not my most endearing quality, but some people seem to like it.
Katherine May:
The other amazing opportunity for my Patreon community will be that you'll be able to ask questions of my guests in advance and you'll receive the answers to those questions in a special subscriber only version of the podcast that's extended to include the Q&A. So it's going to feel really, really exclusive and cool. And you'll be able to get your voice into the podcast, which will be really amazing.
Katherine May:
You'll get the podcast a day early and it will always be ad free. I haven't added ads yet to the widely available version of the podcast, but I may well do in the future, but your version as Patreon subscriber will always be ad free. And there'll be special discounts on my courses and events, early booking links, chances to get signed copies of my books, all kinds of special community bonuses for the people who have already hugely supported my work. It's my chance to give you some extras.
Katherine May:
So in return, I also get help from you with the costs of producing and transcribing and administering this podcast, which I love doing, but it's quite difficult to keep it up sometimes. So I'd love your help if you can afford to. If you can't, don't worry, it will always be the same podcast available free wherever you get it right now. And you should not feel bad about that. That's absolutely fine.
Katherine May:
But for the first month that the Patreon is open, I'm going to be offering a year's subscription for half price. So just two pounds 50 in UK money a month for the first year of your membership. It will only be for that first month. After that, it will revert to full cost, which is five pounds a month. So if you're keen, get in early and help me to get this going and I will be letting you know straight away about the first bonus episode, which is due very soon and also the chance to ask questions of my next crop of guests. Thank you for all your support so far. I love it. I love talking to you all and I love your enthusiasm. And now back to Jen.
Jen Pastiloff:
I mean, yeah. I'm thinking of different things I've done with photo shoots or anything where-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I can't hear them if they're over there or if the camera... And then I panic. And it's just, all I know now is I, and this can be exhausting too, but what I say is I lead with the thing that caused me shame. And I don't mean that everyone has to tell everyone everything. I think that's a bullshit-
Katherine May:
No.
Jen Pastiloff:
No, but I won't hide anymore. So as much as I can, I will immediately disclose that, "Oh, I read lips." It just saves me. It's purely like, first of all, it's so much less anxiety inducing for me than pretending I can keep up.
Katherine May:
Yeah, faking it. Seeing how long you can keep up the fake act of understanding.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes. And then the other person could be more aware to look. And then I take all the story away. There's no story. It just is what it is. I read lips. I'm deaf without-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Where before it was just so much shame around it. And now I'm like right there. Now, it does get exhausting. It's like every single moment of every day, it's constantly being like, "I'm..." But you know how it is. It is like everyone has something. Yeah. It's exhausting.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I'm tired all the time from working so hard to hear, which is why I'm grateful for these new hearing aids. They're a lot louder, a bit too loud in fact.
Katherine May:
Takes some
Jen Pastiloff:
But the constant effort of trying to hear.
Katherine May:
Yeah, it's exhausting. It must be exhausting.
Jen Pastiloff:
And not only that, because a lot of times it's not even that I can actually hear, but after a moment it lands in my head and contextually, I can put it together. So it's like puzzles, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting to talk about this and talk about the fear of not being loved or liked or accepted or heard, or all of those things. And it strikes me that as well as your movement for shame loss, which I'm absolutely right behind, but you also talk a lot about holding other people. Your tattoo, which is I got you, right? Is that right? I got you. There it is. Are you going to show me? Can I see? Can I see it now? Yay. There it is.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's the only one I have. Yep.
Katherine May:
Can we talk a bit about that? I'm really interested in that because I'm interested in, I don't know, the interconnectedness that represents, but also about-
Jen Pastiloff:
Can I tell you something?
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I talk about, it's funny because I was a little bit late for you because I'm on an app called Mined. So everyone listening, it's M-I-N-E-D and it's like a self-help app. There's all these different people that do videos, and it's just great. I talk about it's about embodying that energy, and you embody that. I think about how a couple things about you that I really like, that I love. You're so obviously like you want me to win.
Katherine May:
Oh, yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. That's I got you. And I think about a couple weeks ago, whenever that was when I was working on my new book proposal and I sent you some stuff. And right away, you were like, "Here," boom. You helped me with it. There was no, just completely like, "I got you, Jen." You didn't say that, but that's what you were being. That's it.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
That's what you were being.
Katherine May:
Well, helping is a privilege, isn't it? It's a privilege to help people.
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, absolutely. I think so too. And I mean, I think there's so many layers though. I think first of all, having a parent yanked away so young, it makes sense that I have a bullshit story as I call it that there's not enough. And that, I don't know when I was a kid, I thought God hated me, which is so sad. I know.
Katherine May:
Yeah. That's really sad.
Jen Pastiloff:
I mean, my son's five. And last night he was like, "I miss daddy." And it kills me because my sister was five when my dad died. And I think it's... So the not enoughness was a place I came from for most of my life. Everything was from a place of lack. And when I started as an every day, putting that belief down and doing things that reinforce the opposite, such as there is enough.
Jen Pastiloff:
So if anyone follows me on social media, let's say, one of the things I'm really good at and I do a lot is support other people, promote other people, lift other people up. And I do that for them, but also for me to remind myself there is enough. You don't have to hold onto the story that there's not. Just because Katherine's book is a success, or this or that doesn't mean-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And that is like, I got you. It's the reminder that there's enough and that we're supported. There also is a tendency, I think for a lot of people to be like, "No one has me and I'm not..." And it's bullshit. It can be one person, it could be a bunch of people. And I think the other thing is when we allow ourselves to be this supported, we realise, and I'm really good at asking for help. I just gave a talk on that. And I get a to of yeses and I get a ton of nos, friends listening. And the thing is I don't let that shut me or I let it shut me down for a short period of time as opposed to going, well, they said no. I'm worthless. I'm never going to ask again. I'm going to stop writing. I go, all right. And I, you know?
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jen Pastiloff:
And we ask for help and we allow ourselves to be supported, and it's about reciprocity and how I got you can look so many different ways. So for example, in the beginning of the pandemic when I had kind of a breakdown because I lost all my work, my income and I'm the breadwinner.
Katherine May:
Yeah. God, I can't imagine it.
Jen Pastiloff:
I turned to Instagram and I was like, I did a post. I said, "Do you have enough food to eat?" This was before you followed me. I said, "Do you have enough food to eat?"
Jen Pastiloff:
And it wasn't because I thought like, I'm going to buy everybody groceries. I didn't have any money. And to be clear, full disclosure, I've lived in my apartment 19 years and my rent is very cheap. I'm very blessed. So my overhead was low. So I lost everything. And thank God I lived in a dorm room. Thank God I lived in a 500 square foot rent controlled apartment. Okay. So I posted, "Do you have food to eat?" because I knew that, not that I would like personally feed all the people, but this community I've cultivated, this energy of I got you, that they would step in and that's exactly what happened.
Katherine May:
They would step in. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jen Pastiloff:
So someone would be like, "I lost my job." And another person would send money or groceries. And this started happening and then I stepped in, and this other woman helped me. And we were like, let's do this. And basically, I created a movement and we raised $150,000 to get people groceries and feed people. And I was doing Instagram Lives and raising money. And that was I got you. And it wasn't necessarily me pulling money out of my pocket. It was me-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I have a platform. I hate that word. But I got you can look like so many different things. It can look like what you did helping me with the writing. It can look like checking in on someone. It can look like listening. It can look like giving your elderly neighbour a ride. It can look like whatever, right?
Katherine May:
And it's often tiny, just letting people feel cared for. But can I ask about the opposite of that? Because actually-
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes.
Katherine May:
Boundaries have to come in at some point as well. And that's something that I find very, very hard, because I always want to help everybody.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes, yes.
Katherine May:
And I have to find-
Jen Pastiloff:
Ooh, I love this.
Katherine May:
Yeah, yeah. I'm always having to find ways to remind myself to stop because otherwise I get completely burnt out. And when you write a book, like the Electricity of Every Living Thing, people read it and they realise they're autistic just the same as I did. And I'm the person they want to come to. And I can't help everybody on their individual journey on that. And I find that really painful-
Jen Pastiloff:
Me too.
Katherine May:
Because I would deeply love to. I'd like to physically walk every single person through that journey and hug them as virtually or not virtually as they want, but I can't. And I find that really hard. How do you cope with the boundary setting that you must have to do at the other side?
Jen Pastiloff:
I find it hard and I get lectured by a lot of my friends, especially my friends who aren't as open as I am. They're like, "Jennifer." I've gotten a lot better. I've gotten a lot better since I have a kid. And I know you understand that, right?
Katherine May:
Right.
Jen Pastiloff:
I've gotten a lot better at it because of experience and just going, oh, I'm completely depleted. I find it really, really hard. And especially after my book came out, then it became even greater. But-
Katherine May:
Yeah. It's exponential, isn't it? Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah, because more people then knew my book. And think about this, my tagline is I got you. So anytime then I can't, it's like, yeah, but you're the I got you lady. I mean, okay. And then also consider the fact that I've developed a reputation as you need money? Ask Jen, she raises money.
Katherine May:
Right. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
So think about those two things. It's really hard and I can't help everyone. And so I'm really discerning and I also am really clear now that sometimes I got you, the way that my I got you looks is like, you can sign up for my retreat or my workshop or my yoga class or read my book. I can't be best friends with everyone. I can't. So I got you is within boundaries, and it looks different for every single person.
Jen Pastiloff:
The session I just did, actually was called On Having Your Own Back.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I think having boundaries is about that, right? So me having my own back is knowing I can say no to someone and the world won't collapse. It doesn't mean that everyone will hate me just because one person may be disappointed, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah, yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
No, we absolutely cannot help everyone. And I struggle with that like nobody's business, but I'm really, really clear that also I got, you cannot be a manipulation. Like people cannot use that at me, or I'll say, "Don't apologise." And what I mean is don't apologise for taking up space. Don't apologise for having autism. Yeah, apologise if you're a jerk.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah. There are definitely some things some people should apologise for.
Jen Pastiloff:
Absolutely.
Katherine May:
Like let's be really clear.
Jen Pastiloff:
But people go, "But Jen, you say never to apologise." I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. No, no, no."
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
The art of apologising is really important, but don't apologise for being you or for asking for salad dressing. Yeah, right? Women, like I used to wait tables, "I'm sorry, can I get salad dressing?" I think having boundaries and being able to know that we can't help everyone. I can't raise money for everyone. I can't say yes to everyone. I can't blurb everybody's book, but shame loss is a way of I got you. And me sharing of myself without hiding anymore, I think is a way of I got you because yeah, it can help someone else who maybe is ashamed and terrified of their own depression or hearing loss.
Katherine May:
Yeah. And I think a lot about how, I mean, whenever I see your tattoo, I think how it's a message to yourself as well. Like, I've got your back too, like I've got my own back. I'm going to look after myself too, because we can't help if we're not well cared for in the first place.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I want to model that behaviour. It's important to me to have role model behaviour. And I don't always. I'm human, but it's important to me. And that's why recently, especially this month I'm really proud of myself because I've been doing that. I've been keeping commitments to myself. I've been saying, no more. I've been modelling what it looks like to say I got you to myself instead of just everybody else.
Katherine May:
Yeah. And that's been the huge transformation in my life is keeping acres of my diary free, because it turns out that's what I need to stay well.
Jen Pastiloff:
Same.
Katherine May:
I mean, it's not a luxury, it's really-
Jen Pastiloff:
Same.
Katherine May:
Survival for me.
Jen Pastiloff:
Same.
Katherine May:
And I was shortening my life. I mean, there's just no doubt about it. And you have to, yeah, I can help as much as I can help, but I can't always help personally. And so I do stuff like have a podcast. That's often the best way that I can help.
Jen Pastiloff:
I think it took me until my mid forties. And so I think, oh, maybe someone listening is 30 and they're going to get it a little younger. And I don't regret anything. I mean, that's fib. I do. I regret saying, "I hate you," as the last thing to my dad. And I regret not getting my degree from NYU, but I try to have a life as with as little regrets as possible. I don't regret anything. I am where I am right now. It's beautiful. But man, had I gotten here a little younger, it would've saved me a lot of grief, right? Like not trying to please everyone all the time and worry that they're going to like me, and all that exhausting nonsense.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
So yeah, I got you, but I just think it's a beautiful way to be. And I think we're so-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I love community. I don't know about God. That's where I find God and connection. And it doesn't even have to be like a lot of people necessarily, but deep connection. That's God to me. So yeah-
Katherine May:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:45:30].
Jen Pastiloff:
I got you is everything.
Katherine May:
It's lovely. It's such a beautiful phrase and it doesn't really work in my English accent, it works much better in your accent.
Jen Pastiloff:
So there's so many things like that. I don't know. It does work.
Katherine May:
[crosstalk 00:45:41] I've got you.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. Yeah, because it's like your proper. My mother-in-law, she would say, "I've got you," Charlie. Yeah. She's coming for the first time in two years. We haven't seen her in two years.
Katherine May:
Oh, wow.
Jen Pastiloff:
I know. Since I bought a house. So she'd always stay with us in our one bedroom on our sofa. And so it's going to be like a whole, talk about wintering. I'm in a small town now. I imagine my life is... You're near the water. I'm about 12 miles from the water, but it's a similar, just cozy, kind of energetic. I feel really good here in my body. I think that's how you are where you live, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's the right place for me.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. So I bought a house, which I've kept a bit quiet and it's in my happy place where I had been leading retreats forever. And I never allowed myself to [inaudible] fantasise that I'd own a house or even really leave my apartment, which is depressing when I think about it, just how small I kept myself because of fear. And I always was like, this is my happy place. Maybe one day I'll have a weekend home there. I never imagined living here full time. Now, I can't imagine anything else. It's the best thing I've ever done besides having my son.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I do not miss LA. And I think about your book a lot, because it feels like wintering. I feel like I'm nesting and like...
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). The good parts.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. It's funny, my street doesn't have street lights. It's dark and you could see the stars.
Katherine May:
That's nice.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I just feel really connected to the earth and I feel grounded and comfortable, and I don't want to travel as much.
Katherine May:
You just want to be home.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yes. Yes.
Katherine May:
You found your place. Oh, that's so lovely. So before we go, I want to ask you finally about inner assholes. Another thing that doesn't sound as good in my accent.
Jen Pastiloff:
No, it sounds better when you say it. Asshole.
Katherine May:
No, no. We elongate it too much. It's too, yeah, asshole. It becomes too much about the ass rather than about anything else. Anyway, but I want to ask you finally about, because you do yoga to quiet the inner asshole. And I love that concept. But can you share with the listeners who the inner is and what we do about them?
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, first of all, I believe, I mean I think. Look, I'm not in your mind, but I think everyone has one. And let's talk about seasons, right?
Katherine May:
Oh, hell yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
There's seasons of our life where the inner asshole runs a show. There's seasons of our life, days where quieter, sometimes it's louder and it depends. Like I think I'm going through peri-menopause, so hormones are wacky and my inner a-hole is louder. When you're tired, when you're not sleeping, when you're hungover, when you've just been rejected, your inner asshole is going to be louder. I think the work of our lives is, and this is a really fairly recent epiphany, I've always been like, huh, okay. That's my inner asshole. Examples of things I've said, like you're not a real writer, Jen.
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jen Pastiloff:
Or I don't know, like you're always going to be broke. Just things that your inner asshole says that, I don't tend to use words like negative or positive. They're so binary, but things that open you up rather than things that shut you down, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yep.
Jen Pastiloff:
So I think recently I realised, oh, so it's not just about quieting the inner asshole. Well, I used to think it was killing it and I go, oh no, no.
Katherine May:
That's quite violent.
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, yeah. But not only that, then you wake up and it's in a bed with you again. You're like, okay, I guess I didn't kill it. So let's quiet it, so that it's not the loudest voice. So I realised recently it's about offering it compassion. So it's like, okay, I see you. I get you, and I don't need you. Not today, Satan, because I think ultimately the inner asshole, whatever it's saying to us, and this is very probably psychology 101, but it's trying to protect us. So the inner asshole's like, you should be quiet, because it thinks it's like we're going to get hurt.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And so we offer compassion and go, I don't need you. Not today. And it's every single day, because I don't think it's like, well, I got rid of my inner asshole. It's never coming back, because something will trigger it, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah. It's always going to be a practice. It's like so many things. We can't solve this. You can't kill it, but you can learn to live with it in a way that's a bit more constructive than many of us have experienced. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I'd say the biggest thing for me these days is levity and humour. I think life is hard and we take ourselves so seriously, and the world is shit. And so if you can't laugh and have a sense of humour about things, you're screwed. So I'm always like, find the funny and the levity. And especially with the things our inner asshole says, start to laugh at them. Laugh at the ridiculousness of it.
Katherine May:
Yeah. I think that's really true. And I mean, sorry, this is probably a bit darker than we were, but I used to have a lot of suicidal thoughts as a teenager and into my twenties. And I learnt to live with those by mocking them. That was the only thing-
Jen Pastiloff:
That's exactly what I'm talking about, Katherine. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Katherine May:
That ever killed them. It was this little voice that didn't know when to shut up, and I realised it was a habit rather than anything very real.
Jen Pastiloff:
Boom. Boom. You just hit the nail on the head. Boom.
Katherine May:
I learnt to say like, oh, there you are again. Of course you're going to pipe up.
Jen Pastiloff:
And I'll ask people, because I coach people. Less these days, I'm really discerning. But one of the things, I ask them a bunch of questions and I say, "You don't have to answer all of them, but I just want to get a feel. What are some of the things your inner asshole says to you? What are some stories you want to work on? Does your inner asshole have a name?" And usually I ask that because I think it makes people laugh, but it makes them personify it a bit.
Katherine May:
Personify it. Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. My friend Marley Grace calls hers Roger.
Katherine May:
That is the perfect name for an asshole, incidentally.
Jen Pastiloff:
I know, it is. It's so funny. But you hit the nail on the head with the habits and that's why with my next book, I'm talking about daily practices because when I had that breakdown at the beginning of COVID and the beginning of the pandemic, I was like, how did I get here again? I've done all this work and I wrote a bestselling book and blah, blah, because it's about daily practices. It's not like you killed the inner and that's it. It's not like you reach enlightenment and that's it. It's not like you get happy and that's it. It just doesn't work that way. It's like, what are you doing every day to-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
To shift the habit, to put down the shame, to quiet the inner asshole? Whether it's meditation, whether it's whatever it is.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
But every single day, the habits that we create, and they can be really hard to break these patterns.
Katherine May:
And once you start paying attention to them and you notice their behaviour, it's quite shocking-
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
The idiot stuff they say to you. I mean, honestly, like mine would pipe up. I'd had a slightly snappy interaction with somebody serving me coffee, and it would be like, you're worthless. And after a while, I started to notice it and think, are you kidding me? Someone was rude to me in Starbucks that does not count as worthless. And it's so interesting-
Jen Pastiloff:
And I think-
Katherine May:
Applying consciousness to it.
Jen Pastiloff:
Again, I'm in my forties and I'm like, man, if only it was like this in my twenties because I'm so sensitive. Like if someone's mean to me or, or whatever, it's like, oh my God. I'm like, I don't even deserve to be a person. And a lot of that is because I had that narrative of I'm a bad person. And so I'd look for validation anywhere. And it makes sense for you. Think about you didn't have your diagnosis. You're trying to figure out-
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
You're like, where do I fit in? Who am I?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
How come I'm not like everyone else?
Katherine May:
Yeah. And your experience is often of interactions going wrong. There's some research damning to autistic people that our timing is different, like our conversational timing is different to neurotypical people. And the way you experience that is interactions failing over and over again. And you can really take it to heart, of course you can. But having that self knowledge just really helps to be able to say, oh, that went wrong again. That's all you have to say about it, like that interaction went wrong.
Jen Pastiloff:
It makes me want to cry though, because having this conversation with you, I mean, we had no idea where this was going to go today.
Katherine May:
No, no.
Jen Pastiloff:
But the overlaps. So I am excited about the shame loss thing because I have that same experience all the time, and especially before I started being honest about my hearing loss. And I remember when I finally started telling people, especially at the restaurant when I was waiting tables, this was the reaction I got. "Oh, that makes sense." Or, "Oh, yeah. We thought you were just an error..."
Katherine May:
I hate that.
Jen Pastiloff:
I know, but I realise how I was occurring to people, holy shit. And it's like you said, it's the exact opposite of how I wanted to occur. No, I'm someone who pays attention. And I was occurring like, it's because I couldn't hear.
Katherine May:
And that's such a simple thing. Like so much shame unpacks from it on your side and so much judgment on the other side, and that would be because of their shame and their anxiety about who they are and how they're received. And that becomes this big ball of horrible shit.
Jen Pastiloff:
Yeah. So how coming together, you and I together, it's going to be really beautiful. And I think a huge way that I've discovered is just talking about it, is naming it, right?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
It really is. It's why I lead with the thing that caused me shame because once we talk about it, it's like, oh, it's not so big, bad and scary anymore and it's less awkward, and we realise we're not alone.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's so tough.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's wonderful. And maybe one day, maybe, maybe not, we can make art from it or something, right?
Katherine May:
That's what we do. We've already made art from it.
Jen Pastiloff:
I know.
Katherine May:
Quite pleased with that. Jen, thank you. It's been so amazing to talk to you. I feel like we could talk for three hours and I need to not do that.
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, we will. I cannot wait to be with you.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
I mean, I'm a little bummed you don't watch TV because I'm obsessed with this show right now and I wanted to talk to you about it. Damn you.
Katherine May:
I don't mean to not watch TV, but I don't-
Jen Pastiloff:
On accident.
Katherine May:
I can't imagine when people get the time.
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, it's the only way I get myself to exercise on my silly elliptical.
Katherine May:
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's why it's-
Jen Pastiloff:
I watch it.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Because otherwise it's depressing just to be on there. It's not like walking in nature. It's different, but just being on the machine.
Katherine May:
Yeah, yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
Anyway, there's a show called Borgen. It's Danish. It's political. But all the shows I love are British and take place around where you live. And so, yeah, I'm always like, we're going to talk about our British, but no. You don't watch them.
Katherine May:
I'm so hopeless. Yeah, no I am really hopeless. I've missed, I don't know, I've now missed so many major TV series that everyone loves that I've given up hope.
Jen Pastiloff:
It's not like you've missed. My friend, streaming. Look, you can-
Katherine May:
Oh man, I can't catch up. I can't catch up. It's too late.
Jen Pastiloff:
Well, you don't need to catch up.
Katherine May:
It's too late for me. You have to leave me behind.
Jen Pastiloff:
So I'm excited to be with you in London and Nigella, which is random. And you asked me how we connected. I said Instagram, where I've made a lot of my friends.
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Jen Pastiloff:
And she's just lovely and I love her. And so I was like, "I won't make you cook for us." She was like, "I quite enjoy it." I was like, "Great then." But I can't wait to be with you in person and I haven't been there in two years.
Jen Pastiloff:
I'm really looking forward to it. My mother-in-law lives there and my brother-in-law and I have so many friends. And I feel, I just am really looking forward to being there, and especially in the winter. We don't really get winter here. So we'll winter together, Katherine.
Katherine May:
We will. You will be mid-winter. It'll be the grimmest shortest miserablest days.
Jen Pastiloff:
I love it.
Katherine May:
Thank you you lovely person. It has been so great to talk to you.
Jen Pastiloff:
You too. Thanks for having me.
Katherine May:
And yeah, I look forward to meeting you in person. Great.
Jen Pastiloff:
I can't wait to be with you. It's going to be the blink of an eye.
Katherine May:
I know. It's going to be really soon. Christmas first and then that.
Katherine May:
Tide's coming in. I don't know if you'll be able to hear it, but I can. It changes noise when it turns around and you start to hear it coming back towards you. I love that sound. The seagulls seem to be calming down a bit, for which we can all be thankful. We're only, I don't know, two or three weeks away from mid-winter now from the moment when the days stopped getting shorter and start getting longer again. I started marking it for the first time when I wrote Wintering and I've done it ever since. Can't wait to do it this year.
Katherine May:
It's normally around the 21st of December, I get out onto the beach because actually, I get a really brilliant view of the sunset in Whitstable. And I just spend some time out there. I light a fire, have a couple of friends who join us, but it's a quiet affair. It's not a party. I only want to be with people who are happy to fall into quiet contemplation at those moments. And we light our fire. We watch the sun go down and we notice how far the sun has traveled across the sky. It's really remarkable. I never realised it even happened.
Katherine May:
So we watch it set over the marshes at Seasalter and just enjoy that feeling of change coming through the year. I try and get up early the next morning before the sun rises. I'm normally up before sunrise anyway in the winter, but I try and make sure I'm outside for the sunrise as well. And that's a moment that I like to spend on my own, sometimes light a little candle out there. I like a candle. Sometimes it's that opportunity to feel change happening, to feel those transitions, just to sense them. They're really important to me. Anyway, I don't know if any of you celebrate mid-winter. I'd love to hear if you do. Do tell me.
Katherine May:
So that's quite enough mid-winter rambling from me. I just wanted to say a huge thank you to Jen for such a wonderful conversation. I loved talking to her. I always feel like I want to spend hours in her company, yelling stuff at each other. I love those kind of conversations where your voices overlap because you're so excited to talk to each other. If you, like me think she is a wonderful, warm wise soul, do pick up her book. It's great, On Being Human, available everywhere. It's just so open and vulnerable, full of things that you can't stop yourself relating to so hard and just full of wisdom too. She has this way of spinning out phrases that are massively memorable and comforting. I think you'll love it. Do check it out.
Katherine May:
And thanks to my producer, Buddy Peace, who also composes the theme tune to this podcast. I feel really lucky to have a bespoke theme tune. It's ridiculous, isn't it? How cool am I? (Not very cool). Buddy is, so he does that. Thank you, Buddy. And thank you to Meghan Hutchins who holds everything together, not just for the podcast, but for most of my life. And I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Do check out that Patreon page, do have a look in the show notes to connect up with Jen, and keep warm and well. See you soon.
Show Notes
This week Katherine chats to Jennifer Pastiloff, a speaker, teacher, and author of ‘On Being Human’. In a warm and honest chat with Katherine, Jennifer perfectly lays the table for where she finds herself at this point in time, as a yoga instructor, public speaker and best selling author.
With an attitude of ‘I Got You’ - extended to a community which she has cultivated with care over time - she has learned to transform her own feelings of shame towards her deafness, and earlier moments of trauma in her life. It’s an episode which offers effective solutions within, and inspiring thoughts on behaviours, being misunderstood, and ‘silencing the inner asshole’, as well as overlaps with deafness and autism, and being a founder of a movement known as ‘Shame Loss’.
We talk about:
Shame loss movement
I Got You
Overlaps with deafness and autism
Being misunderstood
Dealing with shame and trauma
Links from this episode:
Jennifer’s Instagram
Jennifer’s Twitter
Jennifer’s website
Jennifer’s podcast
Jennifer’s book, On Being Human
Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!
To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack
For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School
Wintering is out now in the UK, and the US.
