Aja Barber on getting dressed

27 May

The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Aja Barber on getting dressed

———
This week, Katherine asks Aja Barber how we can change the way we buy clothes.

Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!

Listen to the Episode

Katherine May:
Hi, I'm Katherine May. Welcome to The Wintering Sessions. The sun is finally out in Whitstable. We have had a northeasterly wind that has blown for, I don't know, it feels like a month now. So even though the days have been bright, it has been so bitterly cold, particularly at night. Well, finally, the wind is westerly and it's just so beautiful here. I love that point in May when all the flowers come out on the beach. There is pink and white verbena, and loads of yellow ragworts. And loads and loads of tiny sparrows flitting between all the flowers and nibbling seeds and insects from them. It's just such a good moment.

Katherine May:
Tide's high. I've just been in for a swim. The sea is finally turning blue. It's so brown all winter. It's always churned up with mud here because we're in the [inaudible 00:01:38]. But when things get a little bit more settled, it goes clear and blue again. And then it's just a short while before the jellyfish arrive. There's always something to worry about, but it's good. Had a lovely swim. I feel really soothed by it. That's a nice exhale. So I'm beginning to do some slightly different things with The Wintering Sessions in coming months. I'm still going to be talking to guests who have told amazing life stories and who want to think about the difficult times in life. But I'm also on a mission to ask more people about how we go back into the world as this pandemic, not ends, but becomes part of normal life again for better or worse.

Katherine May:
I think so many of us have changed in this time. I think that we've had time to reflect and I think we've also come against the extremes of experience, whether that is extreme loneliness, intense work, fear, anxiety, illness, grief. There's been all kinds of ways that we have been forced into a reckoning with life. And for some of us, we found a better way when we were forced to slow down in the pandemic. We learnt that working from home had benefits, or we realized that we wanted to get out more, and that we crave more social contact, or we realized that we were in the wrong work and that we wanted something with more meaning and purpose, or that we wanted something that was less emotionally demanding. Lots of different conclusions. But I think the thread in common is that a lot of us are thinking about change or are making changes. And I wanted to begin to use this podcast to sometimes ask the question, how can we make those changes? How can we go back into the world and enact that change?

Katherine May:
Kind of see through the promises we made to ourselves in those very dark days when we were locked down. And how do we see this as an opportunity to remake the world a little bit, to not go back to bad old habits, but to make new better ones? And so I'll be speaking today to Aja Barber, who is a stylist and fashion expert, but also the most incredible passionate advocate for ethical fashion. And for us to engage our sense of common humanity with the people who make and distribute our clothes.

Katherine May:
And I mean, it feels to me like a world that maybe I see as none of my business. I'm not particularly engaged in fashion. Some of you may have noticed, but like everybody else, I do buy and wear clothes and I love clothes. I just am not very interested in trends and the cycles of fashion. And I don't find the conversation about that stuff very interesting. But I do want to make sure that when I'm buying my clothes and when I'm making choices, that I make good ones, environmentally good, ethically good towards people, sustainable, all of those things. So that's what I wanted to talk to Aja about today. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I think she's amazing. See you a bit later.

Katherine May:
Aja, welcome to The Wintering Sessions. You are kind of a special new guest for me because normally, up till now I've invited people to talk about a down season in their life and how they survived it. And we always have very rambling conversations. It's never that focused, but that's been the basic principle. But I've kind of wanted to begin to explore some different stuff lately. And I think that's about emerging from lockdowns and living with this new kind of pandemic reality that's going to roll on. And just thinking about how we can use that as an opportunity to not go back to exactly the same life that we lived before. And you were one of the first people that's sprang to mind for that because you are an absolute expert in, I mean, not just fashion in general, but ethical fashion and how we can behave better. Is that a good way to summarize what you do?

Aja Barber:
Yeah. I mean, what I exist to do is just to remind people that maybe you don't actually need that dress. Maybe there's something deeper behind the reason why you want to buy that particular thing. And the truth in the matter is all of these issues that we're facing with the climate crisis are downright terrifying. It's a very, very weird time to be on this planet, but all of these issues do feel very scary, but when it comes to what we're buying, how much of it we're buying, why we're buying it, that doesn't have to be scary. It can actually be really fun. And you can really start to enjoy your life more when you pick apart consumerism in your life and the role that it plays. Because for me, I came from a place where I will never, ever not hold my hand up and not talk about the ways in which I used to consume fast fashion.

Aja Barber:
But one thing I know for certain is I so enjoy the way I exist and the way I play with fashion now so much more than I ever could have. The sense of urgency to buy and consume new things has completely gone away. I wear the clothing in my wardrobe more, longer, better. I spend a bit more money, but I spend less overall because I'm not feeling like I have to buy something new once a week or once a month. So even if I'm going to spend a bit more money on something that's ethically made, overall, I'm not spending anywhere near the amount of money I used to spend on clothing that I wouldn't like a year later.

Katherine May:
And I mean, I imagine we are roundabout the same age, and I think we've both grown up in a society that's told us that that's how you cheer yourself up. You go out and you buy yourself a new dress and you'll feel better about yourself. Like that will be an improvement to the miserable old you. This shiny new you will emerge in a fancy dress and you'll look great.

Aja Barber:
It's so embedded in our society that I don't even think we recognize it. Like one of the things that I talk about a lot is films and their makeover scenes. So all of the films ...

Katherine May:
The makeover scene.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. All of the films that we grew up loving, like Pretty Woman, for instance, that scene where she gets her revenge and says, "Big mistake, huge." That's a very normalizing [inaudible 00:09:29] consumerism. And the fact that people might treat you like dirt, but if you spend all your money on really nice clothing, you'll have your day, you'll have the last word. And it's a really satisfying scene, but consumerism is so hyper normalized, particularly in the media that we consume, that we don't even realize that this is something that we've sold and it's not a way in which we have to exist.

Katherine May:
Yeah. And the one that really gets me and it got me when I was a teenager too, is Grease. The kind of makeover of Sandy at the end. And he loves her anyway. Like she does it despite the fact that he wants her. It made me furious and it makes me even more furious now.

Aja Barber:
I really didn't understand the messaging. It was like, don't be yourself. Here, put on these tight trousers. And now you're cool. I remember not getting it when I was a kid, but everybody liked it so I just shut my mouth. And so, yeah. It's great. It's great. But I remember being like, oh, so he likes her because she wears tight trousers now.

Katherine May:
Yeah. Like what does that mean? And she smokes. But not really very much. Just enough to spit it out again.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. Well, it's a message that we're sending there. I mean, yeah. A lot of things have not aged well in our society.

Katherine May:
Yeah. But I mean, we are still doing. I mean, it's still a trope in novels quite often, the makeover and the ...

Aja Barber:
The makeover of Clueless, the movie, Clueless, has a makeover. The Devil Wears Prada has a makeover. The Princess Diaries has a makeover.

Katherine May:
So many, and it's like you make yourself over to become loved and lovable.

Aja Barber:
To be treated better by society.

Katherine May:
Yeah. It's really ... So before we dig into what we can do, I'd love to know more about your story because you've done a lot of different stuff, haven't you? How did you end up in fashion and how did you get to the kind of end of fashion that you work in now?

Aja Barber:
So I always wanted to be in fashion, but I think one of the things that I talk about a lot on my platform is sort of privilege and wealth and, how these factors determine a lot of what we get to do in life, where we get to exist, that sort of thing. And so I've always wanted to write, and I've always wanted to be in fashion. And every message that I've received from society as a child basically told me that there wasn't room for me in these spaces. And not even just society, but also my parents being loving and protecting parents, but also wanting what's right for your child and saying, look, there is not a lot of room for black women who want to write. That is something where there doesn't seem to be a lot of space for you there. And so I always talk about how ethnic parents are like, you're going to school for liberal arts. No, you're not, not on my dime.

Aja Barber:
So basically explaining to my parents that I wanted to work in this industry that my mother wasn't the type of person who was really super into fashion to begin with. It just was a non conversation. Yeah. So I always sort of dabbled in ways in which I could, but I knew that it just wasn't going to go far. I knew that I wasn't going to go to school for fashion. I mean, at the time, when I was graduating, Parsons was like $30,000 a year.

Katherine May:
Oh my God.

Aja Barber:
So yeah, it was a lot of money. So I just knew that I probably wasn't going to get into the fashion industry in any traditional sense of the word, but that didn't stop me from writing about fashion, often for free, and always having an interest in it and reading everything I could get my hands on, but I kind of knew that I just wasn't going to take the straightforward path that someone with disposable income or someone with a lot of privilege could take.

Katherine May:
Yeah. And that's so interesting because you had to find your meandering path in which I think is what makes for really interesting careers in the end.

Aja Barber:
Totally. I always tell people, like I did not pull up a seat at the table. I climbed the tree across the street and shimmed over the branch into an open window upstairs.

Katherine May:
Like a squirrel.

Aja Barber:
Yeah, basically, basically. And so I was always interested in fashion and I am someone where I think that we all have like certain skills that society doesn't define them as valuable in the capitalistic sense of the word. But I think we have these skills inside of us. And I think if I had to name what my skill is, it's foresight. I am the type of person where I can see the systems around us and I can see where they might end up. I could see if I'm driving on a road in a place I've never been, I know which direction I'm headed in, and I always have a feeling that if I take this road, I might come out here. And with the fashion systems that we've been dealing with in our life, particularly the rise of fast fashion, I remember having a point in my life where I said, "I feel like everybody is buying too much clothing, and I don't know where it's going, and I don't know what's happening with it, but this feels weird."

Aja Barber:
And it wasn't just me. I think personally, I felt like I knew I was buying a lot of clothing and I didn't really like what I was doing. I felt a bit uncomfortable with it. But then I noticed that other people around me were as well, I would have acquaintances, would be moving and they would just give away bin bags full of clothes to their local charity shop. And I thought, okay, if everybody's doing this, we can't all be buying it. That's just not how it works because many of us aren't even buying in charity shops to begin with. We're growing to the mall and buying new.

Aja Barber:
So I began to think, how is this possibly being used and how is this all possibly being resold? And then one summer I volunteered in a charity shop and I was like, oh, it's not. But even then, I didn't know where it was going. I knew that the charity shop that I volunteered in would get bags of clothing piled up to the ceiling. We would go through and probably take less than 10% of that. And then the other, some of it would get trashed because honestly people do donate trash. And then some of it would get sent to like another region of the United States. But I just knew deep down inside that we were dumping clothing on people that didn't want it.

Aja Barber:
And then later on in life, I learned about Ghana and Rwanda and Kenya. And I began to understand that's what happens with this system. Everything that I felt this whole time, where I felt kind of icky, I knew that somebody was paying the price and it wasn't those of us in privileged, wealthy countries. Additionally, as I liked fashion, I was always that person that wanted to know how it was made. So in my 20s, I got a sewing machine and I started trying to make clothing. And what I found was that surprise, it's hard. I mean, for every item I made that was wearable, there were three items that weren't. And knowing how hard it was and how much fabric costs, and how much materials cost, I began to go into fast fashion stores and go, I couldn't make that. So how can they make it and sell it for $10?

Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a question that has led, I mean, it's led you all over the world really hasn't it, to understand the long chain that this fashion represents.

Aja Barber:
One of the things that I think our society, we kind of got away from, we kind of stopped being curious. I think sometimes we see these systems and we go, oh, that seems weird. Oh, well, nothing to do with me, keep buying. And for me, I think I've always been very curious about, well, wait, that doesn't make sense. Okay. And part of it is, you kind of know if you turn over too many stones, you're going to have to change yourself in the way that you interact with the system. And so I do think in some ways, sometimes people don't even want to know. I mean, I have an example. I had this old roommate that I didn't really like, and she really enjoyed sandwiches from Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A is a homophobic company.

Katherine May:
Oh, wow.

Aja Barber:
Yeah, no, they're really, really homophobic. They do not like gay people. And the owner has just come out and said horrific things. They're super religious. So they're closed on Sunday. And my roommate was like, "Oh, I love Chick-fil-A." And I said, "Do you know what is at the core of this company?" And she went, "Don't tell me, don't ruin my sandwich for me." And I think even though it was such an obnoxious thing to say out loud, at least she was willing to say it. Where I think sometimes with the fashion industry, people legit do not want to know because once you know, you can't put it back in the box. If you consider yourself a good person and a person who does the right things, there does become a time period where you can't be free and loose with how you interact with certain systems once you know what's behind them.

Katherine May:
Yeah. It's the going through the looking glass and everything kind of changes. And I mean, I do really understand. And I hear from a lot of people, that sense of kind of almost huntedness at the moment that people feel that they are becoming so aware of so many different inequalities and kind of problematic stuff in the world that they almost feel like they can't make a right decision. And that therefore leads to a sort of surrender to making wrong decisions. Does that make sense?

Aja Barber:
Well, I mean, the thing that people still don't really want to acknowledge because of the system of consumerism that tells us that this is how you participate in society is one decision we can all make is just to buy less. That's really it, but that's not the fun decision.

Katherine May:
Yeah, is not to buy something, yeah.

Aja Barber:
It's not fun at first, but once you start to really unpick consumerism and unlink it to your happiness, you feel really free. I think the decision that people really, to interact less with the system is the one that people genuinely don't want to pick, because the idea of consumerism is becoming a part of our society, a part of our lives. This is what you do. That's something that people feel uncomfortable with moving away from.

Katherine May:
Yeah. So what do people need to know about the cycle of their clothes? I mean, one thing that strikes me whenever I'm like looking at your posts and reading your book is it's actually not just the cheapest clothing we are talking about here, is it? It seems to be spread right the way across the industry, regardless of how much they're charging for the end product.

Aja Barber:
I think people have gotten a little free and loose with that notion that it's going to be like, oh, every place sucks. That's simply not true. Yes, there have been some luxury brands that have been entangled and messed with factories. However, I do think ultimately, if brands were paying more for their clothing, which is, this is why we should really rally for fair wages for everyone. No one's going to be able to overproduce and exploit in the same way. The fair payment part is what's missing. And that's what we have to champion first and foremost. Additionally, there's a book that's out about how fair wages is actually key to fighting the climate crisis within systems. And I think people like to sort of go, oh, well, you just can't win. Luxury fashion does it too. Da, da, da, da, da. How do I know? And I think that's kind of an excuse that people throw out so that they can continue to not move in any direction with the conversation, if you know what I mean?

Katherine May:
Yeah. It's a paralysis excuse, yeah.

Aja Barber:
It is. It's like, oh well, I might as well just keep doing what I'm doing. But the one thing I do say is that when it comes to the clothing that we do spend more money on, there isn't a mountain of real product in [inaudible 00:22:02] market and there never will be. We value luxury fashion differently therefore we treat it differently. With the $5 t-shirt, you don't separate your clothing and you wash it poorly and then it falls apart and you go, oh, it was only $5. You're never going to do that with a Chanel suit. You know what I mean? And so I think our value system is incredibly faulty and that's part of the problem as well. Whether or not, luxury is that much better than fast fashion, the way we treat luxury is inherently different, which changes the life cycle of the garment.

Katherine May:
So talk to me about fast fashion because until I read your book, I mean, I kind of understood that it was really about creating these pieces that are very desirable for a very short space of time. But I didn't realize about the waste crisis that that brings about. Can you explain a bit about that? Because that took me by surprise.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. So fast fashion is clothing that is produced quickly and usually very trend driven in order to serve a quick sell. And a lot of the clothing has planned obsolescence in its core, meaning it's not built to last you. Some of it is fine. I mean, I remember when I used to go to an H&M store, you have various levels of quality spread throughout the store. The problem is the average person doesn't actually know anything about how clothing is made. So people don't even know how to look for quality within a store. So yes, there might be the more upscale, expensive stuff that's going to last you longer. I still have H&M stuff in my wardrobe that I bought years ago because I knew how to look for quality, but the average person doesn't and a lot of the store isn't built to be quality.

Aja Barber:
And so fast fashion is rapidly produced clothing that is produced in order to follow trends, to be sold very quickly, and to be worn very quickly. Fast fashion is not produced with longevity in its core. And we are sort of on this cycle now where every time you go into a store, there's a new season of clothing. A season is when they put out new clothes. And so some of the big brands on the high street operate on 51 seasons of clothing a year.

Katherine May:
What?

Aja Barber:
Meaning every single week, you are getting new clothes. And that cycle that is hyper sped up through micro trends and whatever. And also social media. I think we really neglected to understand how big of a part that social media has played in all of this. And so basically we buy 5 times more clothing than people bought in the 80s today.

Katherine May:
Wow. Five times.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. And that's another thing when people act like buying fast fashion is about necessity. I would argue if we're buying 5 times more clothing then someone did 30 years ago that we're not shopping for necessity, we're shopping because that's how we've been sort of trained to do it in a lot of ways.

Katherine May:
So the factories are overproducing basically. There comes a point when they ...

Aja Barber:
The brands are overproducing and they're getting the factories to do it obviously. And this is not a good system for factories either. We've got something called the race to the bottom and the race to the bottom is about brands trying to get the best possible, lowest, cheapest price for the garments that they're making at any cost. So they might go to one factory in Bangladesh and say, "We've got an order of 50,000 items. We want you to do it, but we want the turnover to be really quick. And you've got to make these shirts for a dollar a piece or whatever." And yeah, then they sell it to you for 10. And the factory might go, "Okay, we don't want to lose all their business. So we have to sort of say yes to them." But in actuality, that brand knows that they can't actually fulfill that order.

Aja Barber:
And then the factory might have to outsource to another factory for less money. So they'll go to another factory, one that might have children working and say, "Hey, can you make some of this for us and we'll give you some of the money as well?" And so it's a tough one because nobody really wants to accept the blame here, but I would say it's the brands, because when you give a factory an unfillable order of clothing for such a low price, what do you think is going to happen?

Aja Barber:
And we have to remember, no one goes overseas to manufacture their clothing to be altruistic. There's this notion that, oh, we're doing such a good thing. And it's like, well, why wouldn't you want to do that good thing for people in your country where your headquarters are? If it's such a good thing, no, they're going overseas for cheap exploitative labor where you can rip someone off. And so I think that we really, really have to put the blame where it belongs here and that's on a lot of the big brands. They've created this system and now they're going, oh, help us to fix it. And it's like, no, fix it yourself. You're the one that's made billions of dollars.

Katherine May:
And also the way that it kind of gets portrayed as like an act of charity when they behave with basic decency towards their workers. I think that's the one that drives me the most crazy.

Aja Barber:
Oh yeah. No, it's totally treated, and that's like white-saviorism and colonialism in its core, that attitude that you're doing something charitable for the workers, which make your company worth billions of dollars. And they're the ones that are paid the least amount of money. Like these workers, no workers, no clothes, no brand. And so these are the people that are doing the most backbreaking, hardest labor. And yet they're paid the least, they're at the bottom of the pyramid and they're paid the least. And then this brand acts like it's charitable.

Katherine May:
And one of the things that you unpick really effectively is the argument that I think we've all heard a lot, which is, well, they don't get paid much, but that's a lot of money in their country. I mean, these are not people on good wages, are they?

Aja Barber:
I always ask people, I'm like, well, do you want to do that job? And no one ever bounces back from that because it points out the colonialism behind their own statement, that someone in another country should be happy to do dangerous, horrible work that we wouldn't want to do. That's the reality. People say that. But they don't realize when they're saying it that you're participating in a system where you devalue other people based on where they live.

Katherine May:
So we've done the dreadful stuff, but you are actually ... I mean, you always strike me as like really hopeful about how this could work in the future. And I think your patience with repeating this message comes from a kind of faith that we can improve. Is that right?

Aja Barber:
Yeah. I mean, it really doesn't have to be this way. If anything, I think what people don't realize is 90% of the profits of the fashion industry go to the same 20 stores, which is ridiculous. And when you have a system like this, it's bad for you as well. It's bad for your community. It's bad for your local economy. One of the things that I talk about in Consumed is when you support a local business, how much of that money stays locally. But when you support a big box store, a small portion of it stays locally and most of it flows in a different direction. And it's not going to the people that are doing the hardest work ever.

Aja Barber:
And so this system of total monopoly over the fashion industry is bad for everyone. I tell fashion students, if you want a job when you get out of school, you should definitely not like fast fashion because having a monopoly of these are the employers that you can work with is bad for you. There's less of a competitive job market. They don't have to pay well because that's all that's really being offered. And so every person who actually cares about the fashion industry should want to put a stop to fast fashion, because it's not actually good for any of us.

Katherine May:
Yeah. And you know what? Because I kind of have got away with thinking, well, I'm not really into fashion. I'm not fashionable, but actually I do wear clothes.

Aja Barber:
We all put clothing on our body.

Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so it is totally my business and I feel like my disengagement with it is a kind of luxury because actually I'm not thoughtlessly putting clothes on my body either. I might not be following micro trends, but I don't really have a right to feel smug about that.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. No, I think it's great if you don't feel certain pressures, but I think we have to realize that the majority of the world does. I mean, even within the conversation about buying secondhand, there will always be this system where people who feel very comfortable buying secondhand, won't really acknowledge the reasons why others might not feel comfortable. It's like this notion about the rich person that dresses in rags and it's like, yeah, you can dress that way because you're already in a certain club, aren't you? We all went to university with the person who's incredibly wealthy who dressed in tatters.

Katherine May:
Is scruffy.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. And you could be that scruffy person, if society isn't weighing you based upon certain appearances, because you're already in the right clubs and you're already in the right rooms. And so sometimes people will say, "oh, I don't know why everyone doesn't shop secondhand." And it's like, because for some people there's still a stigma there, which we have to break within our society, but we're never going to break it by acting like, oh, everyone should just do this. Like no, let's break it down. Let's talk about why someone who grew up in a low income background might not feel that comfortable with secondhand clothing. How do we get to a place where we can normalize this so that everyone feels comfortable with secondhand? How do we make it really cool, and not just cool, but also accessible? I mean, my niece in the UK, she lives in Sevenoaks, Kent. And I was there last year and I remember wanting to check out a local charity shop and realizing the charity shops there are not as accessible and as abundant as the ones we have in London. How do we change that?

Katherine May:
Yeah. And actually, I mean, like I'm really tall, for example. I can't find that much in charity shops because I might find some tops, but I won't find any bottoms. It's not that straightforward, is it? It's not the only way to solve this because at some point new clothes have to enter in.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. It's never going to be a one size fit all solution in this conversation. And that's where we need to do like all the things, but we need to try and meet people where they're at. But also I think people also have to be honest about where they're at. Because we have this thing in our society where nobody wants to be rich and everybody claims to be poor at different times. And it's this thing where we don't talk honestly about money. And so the idea of who has the agency to make changes and who doesn't, people sort of jump around with where they are in that conversation.

Aja Barber:
And I think being realistic about who you are and what changes you can make is crucial here because everybody buys fast fashion and everybody will claim to buy it because of affordability. But for the person who's never going to worry about how they're going to pay their mortgage or whatever, is the affordability argument really for you? Let's just be real. There's a lot of people. I think we do this thing in our society where everybody thinks that when it comes to justifying paying low prices for things, you can go, oh, well I'm poor. This is more affordable for me. I'm house poor. It's like you have a house. So yeah, I think being realistic. Because I just think there's a lot of dishonesty in this conversation. I mean the average American citizen buys 70 items of clothing a year. That's ...

Katherine May:
70?

Aja Barber:
70. It used to be 68, but I just read recently 70.

Katherine May:
It's gone up. That's more than one a week.

Aja Barber:
That's more than one a week and I don't have the numbers for the UK, but I bet you it's pretty similar. And so people will say, "Oh, I can't afford to pay for ethical clothing." But if you're buying 70 items a year, even if you're buying 10 to $20 items, that is still enough money where you could actually just get a few ethical items and call it a day.

Katherine May:
Right. I'm just interrupting you for a moment to ask if you'd consider subscribing to my Patreon. Friends of The Wintering Sessions get an extended edition of the podcast a day early, the chance to put questions to my guests, a monthly bonus episode and exclusive discounts on my courses and events. Most of all, you help to keep the podcast running. To find out more, go to patreon.com/katherinemay. Do take a look. Now back to the show.

Katherine May:
So when you started on your, I'm going to call it a journey, let's go for journey, your journey towards dressing more ethically, clothing yourself more ethically. Where did you begin? Did you like go completely cold turkey? Did you gradually transition?

Aja Barber:
Well, the first thing, yeah, it's gradual. I always tell people don't beat yourself up if you're ... There are very few people that can just be like, I'm never doing this again because it's pretty hardwired in us. But there were a few things for me. The first thing I did was I just one day really got so tired of reading all the emails. So I unsubscribed from everywhere.

Katherine May:
Wow. Yeah.

Aja Barber:
And I remember feeling, and this is still such a sad statement to say out loud. I remember feeling really like, who will I be if I'm not buying this way? Like feeling like there was a loss of identity for me. And then I thought that is patently ridiculous. So I continued to hit delete, unsubscribe. And at first I did feel like, oh, I really miss being harassed to buy things I don't need every single day in my email inbox. But then I realized, oh wait, I hated that. I absolutely hated it. I hated the obligation to read the emails. I hated always hunting for a coupon on something that I had seen once on another person on the internet. And realized that I didn't actually even really need that item, but I saw someone who I want to be friends with wearing it or whatever. I realized very quickly that I did not miss it. And so that was one step was unsubscribing.

Aja Barber:
But also moving overseas. I always tell people, when we move and we want to throw away all of our items, that is God's punishment for materialism because it never fails. Whenever I move, I'm always just like, my God, where does it all come from? And I've just moved recently. And let me tell you, I still have that feeling and I am so much better than I was before and I'm still feeling it. So that tells you I still have work to do. I am still work in progress. But moving, I think is really good for just thinking, I don't want to fill this space up, I want to really be more thoughtful and intentional about what I bring into my house.

Aja Barber:
But there were a few times where I would go back and be like, oh, maybe I do actually want this one item. But I tell people if you're in that place where you're trying to get away from it all, do the thing where you walk away. If you decide that you still really, really want that item and you can't stop thinking about it, after you've walked away from it, I'm not going to show up and slap your credit card out of your hand. Sometimes I wish I could for people, I feel like sometimes people need that.

Katherine May:
Maybe you could hire yourself out for a cost. That's where people could spend their money instead, on you slapping the credit card.

Aja Barber:
There were talks in America about putting Harriet Tubman on one of the bills, which I kind of disagree with but whatever. But the picture and image that they picked of Harriet Tubman, she's looking really judgemental and someone [inaudible 00:39:06].

Katherine May:
We need that.

Aja Barber:
Where it was like Harriet is judging you and telling you, you don't need that.

Katherine May:
Harriet is like, no, stop it. Step away.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. So I just think it's a lot easier than people think because we buy too much to begin with. So the first thing that all of us can do is just slow our our roll. Your bank account and your credit card will thank you. Because mind did. I remember there was one year where I had haphazardly kept all my receipts from one store in particular and it wasn't that I'm organized. I just did it because I don't know, they just collected in one space. And so at the end of the year, I decided to add up all of those receipts and let me tell you, I was so mad with myself. I wanted to kick my own ass because this store is run by a billionaire, and I've just given him like a percentage of my income, which was very low at the time, but still.

Katherine May:
And always going to be definitely much smaller than his.

Aja Barber:
Exactly. So having that realization that I just don't like this anymore. I'm spending all of my money. I don't even realize that I'm spending it, was really crucial. And so just slowing down, taking the time to unsubscribe from apps. And people will also ask me and I feel like this always reveals that people haven't done the unpicking that they need to. They always go, "Where do I shop from now?" And I think if you're really unpicking consumerism, you're realizing that that's not actually the first question that you could really be asking.

Katherine May:
It's not like about replacing one shopping behavior with another one.

Aja Barber:
That's exactly it. People are trying to replace unethical consumerism with ethical consumerism, but ethical consumerism takes time. It's slow. I mean, now I was explaining to someone, I had bought a dress on [inaudible 00:41:06] Collective, and it's a lovely dress. But I let that dress sit on my wishlist for a year before I bought it. In the past, I never would've done that. I would've been like, get it now, get it immediately. Buy, buy, buy. And it's a much slower pace of life, but I absolutely didn't need the dress. I just really wanted it. And I decided after a year, I can make this purchase. So really being very thoughtful and intentional about how you're purchasing is a part of that. And you won't get there quickly. You can't replace the type of consumerism we're doing with ethical consumerism and think that that's the problem solved. No, we're still participating in the problem if that's what we're doing.

Katherine May:
But I mean, I love your Instagram feed. And one of the things I love the most about your Instagram feed, and there's no way to say this without sounding weird, but I love watching you get dressed. Sounds like I've got binoculars through your window. It's so gentle.

Aja Barber:
They're like, I sound so weird. And I'm like, no, it's fine. There's a few things. Like one, my body is that of a middle aged person. And you don't see enough of that on social media, in my opinion.

Katherine May:
Absolutely.

Aja Barber:
Part of the reason I put myself out there is so that people can actually see bodies that look like theirs reflected. Another reason is because I want people to understand that there is a method to how I do things and none of it is overnight. When I talk about the clothing I'm putting on, often I'm putting on pieces that are 8, 9, 10 years old. But they still really work. And what I hope to inspire people to do is to reach into their wardrobe and wear something that they've had for eight, nine years in a different way because sometimes that's what we really need. Not everyone can afford to hire a stylist, but I do like some styling for people.

Aja Barber:
And one of the top things I do is go into people's wardrobes and go, this is great. Why aren't you wearing this? And they'll say, "Oh, well, I used to wear it like this." Okay. Well, you just got bored of wearing it in a certain way. Let's find a new way to wear it so that we can breathe life into this in a different way. One of my clients, we had just gone through a few of her pieces and she said she went into work and it had been items that she had worn and she was so tired of. But we paired them together differently. And when she walked into work, her coworker looked at her and went, "You look nice today."

Katherine May:
That never happens.

Aja Barber:
So sometimes you just need a second pair of eyes. Well, I don't get that because I work from home. So it doesn't happen here either.

Katherine May:
Yeah, I understand that. But I think it seems to me as well that you take really good care of your clothes. Like you often talk about how long you've made something last. What am I not doing that you are doing that makes your clothes last for so long?

Aja Barber:
It depends. So part of it is a lot of what I own in my wardrobe, particularly things that are 10 years old and whatnot, I've always liked nice things, but I've just always bought it secondhand. So I do think in a lot of cases, like a lot of luxury goods and higher priced items will last you a long time if you care for them. But I think we're probably acting the same way. I mean, I separate my clothing for colors if I'm putting them in the washing machine, I don't just throw everything in together.

Katherine May:
I've only started doing that this year.

Aja Barber:
That's a part of it. That's a part of it. If your stuff looks dull, it's because you're ... I really, really separate my colors. One of the things that I do that American listeners probably don't do is we don't really use the tumble dryer. I mean, we have a washer dryer, but I call our dryer the Wrinkler because it doesn't do much for your garments. But also that's a part of the climate crisis problem is that apparently if nobody used tumble dryers with the frequency that countries like America uses it, that would account for a percentage of carbon emissions that we need to lower. So that's something, like not using the tumble dryer on everything, using a drying rack for clothing will dry on its own.

Aja Barber:
My knitwear, I don't over clean. I always wear an undershirt. So my knitwear collection is the jewel of my wardrobe. And I always wear an undershirt under knitwear and I do not clean it unless there's a spill or in our case, we're having a moth infestation. So I sent everything out to be dry cleaned. And we are getting parasitic wasps this week.

Katherine May:
What?

Aja Barber:
I'm so excited about them. So they're microscopic wasps that hatch, they send you a bunch of the eggs on a card and you just ...

Katherine May:
Oh my God.

Aja Barber:
Put them in your different rooms. And these little wasps hatch, they don't bother you or your pet, but they find the eggs that the moths have laid because it's a larva that eat your clothing, and the parasitic wasps lay their eggs within the moth eggs and ...

Katherine May:
And it kills them off.

Aja Barber:
And it kills it. They eat the eggs basically.

Katherine May:
Wow.

Aja Barber:
And then once all the moth eggs are gone, they show themselves out.

Katherine May:
That is amazing.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. So basically that's going to be my solution there because we had moths at our old flat and they ate the carpet to pieces. And so yeah, this time around, I was just like, no, we need to bring in the big guns.

Katherine May:
Zero tolerance on moths.

Aja Barber:
Yeah. So I've sent everything out to be dry cleaned this week. But for a lot of those pieces, they would not be getting that because I would be refreshening, taking care. I try to always, really take good care of my knitwear, and that just includes not washing it a lot. Spot cleaning, that sort of thing.

Katherine May:
And as you say in your book, everyone can learn to sew on a button.

Aja Barber:
Everyone can learn to sew on a button or to just ... There's such a difference between getting your clothing tailored. And a lot of people are afraid, they don't know where to begin. But [inaudible 00:47:26] buy a jacket in a charity shop. And it's just a little bit too big, but you know that it could be really great. Take that to your tailor, spend a little bit of money and you will have a jacket that will fit you better than anything you'll buy off the rack. So tailoring, caring for your clothes, just really treating stuff well, and it will last you a lifetime, a lot of brands. Some stuff is not built to last you until next year. But if you choose well and take care of it, you can get a good life out of a lot of your clothing. And that's what I really aim for because I don't like to buy new things constantly. I don't want to be in that buying cycle.

Katherine May:
And most importantly, make sure you love it before you buy it in the first place. Just take some time to fall in love.

Aja Barber:
Yes. And I think we all know what that feeling is when you walk into a store and you absolutely fall in love with something. With fast fashion, we've gotten away from that because fast fashion sort of tells us, you have to love every micro trend. And I have to say, I've never felt more free before than when in my 20s, I was like, I'm not going to do that. And I remember what the trend was. It was those wet look leggings. And I just thought I will never ever do that. And in saying no, I felt so free. I felt like here's a trend that I just don't even have to try because I don't want to try it. And I don't have to explain that. And I also don't have to buy a polyester product that's going to be on this planet for longer than my body will. And after I realized that it was okay to say, that's not for me, I think I really freed myself to really dive deeper into, but what is for me?

Katherine May:
That's a lovely place to end actually. Thank you so much. I don't think we need to feel pessimistic about it and I just think that's a really refreshing idea in itself.

Aja Barber:
It can be so fun. Like that's the thing. I absolutely enjoy my wardrobe more now than I did when I was shopping in a way that wasn't good for myself or the planet. And that's what people don't realize is that these systems aren't good for us. They're not good for our wallet. It's not good for the people that have to make the clothing. And it's not good for the planet. But ultimately there is a better way and it's a lot more fun.

Katherine May:
Thank you so much. That was just brilliant. It was a real pleasure to talk about stuff that takes me outside of my comfort zone. So thank you.

Aja Barber:
Thank you for having me. It was a really great chat.

Katherine May:
It strikes me that while I'm sitting here, I should admit to you that I am in yoga pants. It's a wardrobe staple that I didn't adopt during the pandemic, believe it or not. I mean, I've worked from home on my own for years and I've always found that I'm happiest getting dressed properly in grown up clothes every day. It just makes my day feel more purposeful. It kind of makes me feel fresh in the morning. So I carried on doing the same thing throughout the whole pandemic. And it's only since we all got back into the world, that I bought my first pair of proper yoga pants. Why have we in England adopted yoga pants? I don't know. We don't call them leggings. We call them pants. Anyway, that's not important. The important thing to say is that I have finally ditched my 15 year old running tights that I paid £10 for in a discount store, which were beginning to look a little bit see through if we're honest.

Katherine May:
And I've bought some proper yoga leggings and I can finally see everybody's point. They are the most divinely, comfortable thing I have ever put onto my body, and I will be wearing them a lot in the future. So there you go. I do follow trends after all, just two years too late, which is fine. I'm a tall girl. Have to wait for them to come in my size. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I really, really did. I'm ready to be really challenged on these things, and I know that I kind of see it as a get out clause that I'm not terribly interested in these things, and that I am an awkward size and shape to dress, but it's not really good enough. And I think if we can all start to make small changes, it will have huge impact. But it is, I think, endlessly surprising how terrible our impact is on the rest of the world. And I guess I'm trying to bear witness to that more often now. I don't mean that in a smug way. I mean that in a very imperfect, rubbish, human being kind of a way.

Katherine May:
Two little dogs have just run past, having a lovely play. They've been in for a swim. They're all wet. They're now swimming again. Wow. Thanks for joining me. I hope to have more beach based chats with you in the future for a little while. We're coming to the time of year in Whitstable where everybody hangs out on the beach at night. It's such a lovely thing to do. We come down, we bring a picnic, or fish and chips, and maybe a glass of wine. Only do it if you're careful with the glass guys afterwards. And it's just the best feeling. I remember last year at midsummer, when the beach was packed, suddenly a heron appeared and started wading through the shallows. A surreal moment, felt like midsummer magic. And of course we get amazing sunsets in Whitstable. The Sun sets directly over the sea, particularly in summer. And the whole sky turns every shade of red, and orange, and purple. And some nights the sea turns red as well when it's a little bit stormy and overcast.

Katherine May:
I love it when the tide's high at that point. And I can swim in the sunset. Hope to be able to share with that with you over the summer. Right, I'm going to gaze at the sea some more. You all take care and I'll see you really soon. Thank you to everybody who helps make this podcast possible. To Buddy Peace, the producer to Meghan Hutchins, the convener, and to the brilliant Patreons who just have the best time, or give me the best time I should say. This month, we're working on some Q&As on how to live a creative life together, which has just been really interesting for me to think about and a really, really great conversation. Please do join them if you can. It really helps keep us afloat. But most of all, thanks for listening. I'll see you soon. Bye.

Show Notes

This week, Katherine asks Aja Barber how we can change the way we buy clothes.

Many of us have an uneasy feeling about the clothes we buy and wear. Although we know that there are ethical issues with their production, few of us understand how to change our behaviour, and make better choices. As a stylist and fashion consultant, Aja makes it her business to understand the whole supply chain, from raw materials to disposal. There are some dark stories to absorb, but there’s also plenty of hope: Aja shows that the change starts with us, and with the joy we find in the garments we love.

We also talk about Aja’s path to the work she does now, and her beautiful practice of getting dressed on Instagram. She can teach us so much about about learning to love our own bodies, and to cherish our old clothes.

We talked about:

How we engage with fashion
How changing in habits can mean opting out of the system
How to take care of your stuff so it lasts

Links from this episode:

Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!

To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack

For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School

Note: this post includes affiliate links which means Katherine will receive a small commission for any purchases made.