Gemma Cairney on conducting energy with balance and motion
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Gemma Cairney on conducting energy with balance and motion
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This week Katherine chats to Gemma Cairney, presenter, curator of greatness and author of ‘Open: A Toolkit...’ and more.
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Listen to the Episode
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Katherine May:
Hi, I'm Katherine May. Welcome to The Wintering Sessions. As you can probably hear, I'm running a bath. I quite often, at the beginning of these podcasts, take you out for a walk. But today I thought I would share my rather secret afternoon ritual, which is that I quite often take a bath in the middle of the day. I find it really soothing. But also, quite often my work extends into the evening. I'm often doing interviews in America late into the evening. And so it's really easy for me to just carry on working right through to then, with a little break to say hi to my son. And I quite often start at half past four or five in the morning as well, because that's when I write the best. And so if I'm not careful, I can accidentally be working 15-hour days without even meaning to. And so when I want to take a rest, I take a bath. I think it's probably eccentric to do that, but that's never bothered me before, for sure.
Katherine May:
And I do really get reset by sitting in hot water. It really clears my head and untangles all those weird thoughts that just get stuck sometimes. I find it really useful for creative work, but most of all, I've been working really hard to divorce the idea in my mind that my worth is linked to the amount of time I sit at my desk. I mean, honestly, it's just obviously not true for me and for what I do. The way I earn my living is in these weird fits and starts, it definitely isn't per hour. But, of course, I grew up with the idea that you get paid by the hour. That is your value. And it's quite toxic, really, for me to believe that. Because the longer I sit in front of my desk, quite often, the less I end up doing. But I turn up anyway, because I feel guilty. I feel like my job isn't real. I feel like I'm not real half the time, I spend a lot of time alone. Anyway, so I'm running a bath. I thought I'd share that with you today.
Katherine May:
And I'm so excited for you to listen to this interview with Gemma Cairney. I just [inaudible 00:03:04] you can probably tell, but I loved talking to her. She's just like a little light bulb, I think. I love people like that. But I also think she had a really brilliant story to tell, and it wasn't the story I was expecting her to tell me. I was expecting her to tell me about the time after that, actually, when she moved up to Edinburgh, but we didn't get there. We didn't get time, because she hijacked me with this really wonderful story of how it felt to be so alone in lockdown. And living embedded in a cliff, and swimming in the sea, and dealing with all the terrible doubts that... And a sense of, "What next?" that loads of people in the arts and media felt at the beginning of lockdown. Like not knowing if they'd have any work again, and everything getting canceled. And I'm sure that's relatable for lots of people who work outside of that field as well. I hope it is.
Katherine May:
But anyway, it was a brilliant conversation. I absolutely loved it and I didn't want it to stop. She's been such a guiding voice, really, in culture for maybe people younger than me, hand on heart. I'm not that down with the kids, I will own that. But she does way more than that. If you haven't come across her before, you're going to love her. If you have, you'll know what I mean. Anyway, enjoy hearing from Gemma and me, and I'll be back a bit later.
Katherine May:
Gemma, welcome to The Wintering Sessions. I'm so thrilled you agreed to talk to me today, it's really wonderful. Oh, I'm feeling a little bit intimidated by someone as competent as you are in recording things. And I just hope I can get away with being charmingly incompetent [inaudible 00:05:11] be all right.
Gemma Cairney:
I think that people seem to believe the smoke and mirrors that I put up, that I need everything to be super slick, supremely professional.
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:05:23].
Gemma Cairney:
Whereas really I am, at heart, quite a DIY punk. And I'm absolutely fine with charming, and incompetent is good.
Katherine May:
It's a wonderful thing to have a reputation for hard work and professionalism, and that's exactly what you have. That's such a great thing to project out into the world, I think.
Gemma Cairney:
Oh, thanks. That means that it's worth it.
Katherine May:
All that fronting is paying off.
Gemma Cairney:
I think I am a grafter, and I think there are many reasons for it.
Katherine May:
Would you like to shed light on those reasons?
Gemma Cairney:
I think that if you are a woman, I think if you are a woman that looks like me. I mean that in terms of my cultural identity, as well as the way I choose to express myself. What I wear, how my body constantly changes and reacts to how I'm feeling, or the world around me. Where I'm at in terms of my endless curious discoveries of what it means to be alive, and how I wanted to document that and frame it. I think that to be a grafter has been a true gift, and wrenched me through my growing up period, which I think is only just [inaudible 00:06:44] a little bit.
Katherine May:
Surely it carries on forever.
Gemma Cairney:
I think it definitely does. But the real painful bit, [inaudible 00:06:52] the growing pains, I hope have calmed. But I always want to grow. And I think being a grafter is super interweaved into who I am. And it's been grafting my way out of adversity, or making decisions which might not be good for me, but not really knowing why. And just keeping on going, and working, and working. And I think that if I put out into the world hard work and professionalism, then that's a really, really good, good thing. That's a great part of that complicated obsession with work.
Katherine May:
Definitely. Well, but also, whenever I come across a grafter, like I'm a grafter, too. And I just always see a person who's taking it seriously, and who isn't complacent about what they've achieved and where they are in the world. And that's the way I always want to be.
Gemma Cairney:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), I respect that.
Katherine May:
Yeah, mutual respect.
Gemma Cairney:
Come on, [inaudible 00:07:52] something. I first of all had my eyes closed, because I thought it would be a nice, serene way to do this interview. But you've [inaudible 00:08:02] me up, Katherine.
Katherine May:
You've opened your eyes accidentally.
Gemma Cairney:
Here I go.
Katherine May:
I love it.
Gemma Cairney:
That's not very Wintering of me.
Katherine May:
That's so good. Well, now you're all charged up. But you started in this world really young, as well, didn't you? I mean like you had your first success at, what, 23 or something like that?
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
So yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
I got my first job at the BBC when I was a child.
Katherine May:
Wow. What was that like?
Gemma Cairney:
It is everything that you would imagine it to be. It's a roller coaster with so much beautiful high times, and excitement, and thrill. And exhilaration for having the dream job when you've still got that incredible resilience, and robust energy, and love for life, and living, and meeting new people. And there I was in the centre, in the core of fun, youth culture, music, gigs, parties, fashion.
Katherine May:
Amazing.
Gemma Cairney:
It was incredible.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Was it hard as well, or was it just incredible?
Gemma Cairney:
Definitely, it was hard. I think if you'd asked me then, I felt so thankful because it was so unexpected, that I might not have said it was hard. Because I wouldn't have wanted to admit that it was. For me, I was made to feel, by myself and from the world that I was in, the industry side of it, to feel super grateful. And I was, I rode out on that gratefulness for years. I was just so excited, like an excitable puppy. So it really does a lot, though, it keeps you moving in momentum. So that even some of the harder stuff, like you say, "Was it hard?" Yes, crazy hours.
Gemma Cairney:
I was doing breakfast radio for years, different time slots. I'd be given a call by a boss and told, "We're going to move your show to this." And you don't really get that much choice. And your lifestyle is changing all of the time, and it's not necessarily in your hands, but you are really thankful. I guess it's gratitude personified. And it does actually help the hardness of it all, or an injustice, or something super unfair, or cruel even. You know?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
Like there are all those bits attached to being suddenly in the public eye, to serving something that is systemically very patriarchal. There are issues with racism and sexism daily. There's so many hard things that were experienced.
Katherine May:
Yeah. And it's always in your face.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. But the momentum, and the thrill, and the joy. And I feel like that's very youthful as well. Like my youth, like being 23, and having a great gaggle of friends, and just having this optimism about life, it actually helped some of those harder bits roll off in the rain, like it goes. It doesn't mean it doesn't affect you. And sometimes it comes and creeps up on you a bit later, which I think it did for me, but it was hard.
Katherine May:
[crosstalk 00:11:27].
Gemma Cairney:
But did I feel like it was hard? Not necessarily. Because I was so into the moment, I was so momentously excited. And most of the moments that I was experiencing were joyful and a privilege, and I knew that.
Katherine May:
I don't think everyone would have that perspective, though. I mean, you're clearly an optimist, and you're clearly someone that finds the positive in the whole world. Like whatever comes at you, you're going to find the good stuff from it. And what I hear from a lot of people is a fixation on the bad side of experience, and without that counterbalancing happy side. And that is definitely a mindset, I think.
Gemma Cairney:
Yes. And on analyzation, which I have given myself time to do, it's a weighty investigation. Because I'm only that, essentially, I'm only super optimistic or know how to spring myself into the light because I've had to do that to survive. And that goes back to the day I was born. I honestly, sometimes I have to move on with the subject because I think that I've been doing that my whole life. From the day I was born, I was born into bereavement. My mum had lost her mum while she was pregnant.
Katherine May:
Oh wow.
Gemma Cairney:
And I don't want to make it sound overly dramatic, or sensationalised, or overshare, but we had to get out of an unsafe situation in the house that I was in when I was a baby. There are so many things that could so easily crumple my sort of spirit, which is a really rebounding one. That I think I've honestly been an eternal optimist since the day I was born.
Katherine May:
Since birth.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, that I've had to be like that to survive. Which, when you break down, is potentially a bit sad. And then I've had to learn to genuinely grieve, or go through the process of accepting your responsibility, all of that kind of quite hard to define sometimes stuff, let's say, [crosstalk 00:14:01].
Katherine May:
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. Because I was talking to a friend yesterday about like I'm having to learn not to scramble. Scrambling is what I've always done, and hustling, that is my default mode. And there comes a point when you have to deliberately not do that in order to make enough space to think, and reflect, and to actually do what you're doing properly and to develop as a... Like for me as a writer. But it really is a hard skill to unlearn sometimes. Even though that scrambling is one of my key skills and I can get my way out of anything, I also know that it's not always the right thing to do. That sometimes you have to do stuff a bit slower, and you have to take the hard way around. And you have to make room for the learning that you need to do, I think.
Gemma Cairney:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I think to learn the virtues of time can only be done over time.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know.
Gemma Cairney:
You couldn't tell me that age 23.
Katherine May:
No.
Gemma Cairney:
I had way too many fun things to distract myself with. And good for me, good for little me. I was up for it. I was loving going for meetings, coming up with ideas, thinking about what shoes I was going to wear to an award ceremony. Preparing for an interview with Whoopi Goldberg the next morning. Co-presenting with an idol of mine, Trevor Nelson. It was an amazing playground. It was an assault course in a way, like an adventure. Physically, mentally, et cetera, it was wild and it was hard.
Gemma Cairney:
And yeah, I would love to go back to myself and tell myself to learn how to eat properly. And that yoga will become my best friend, rather than dabbling with it because I had a hangover sometimes. There's all these things, but at the same time, only time can teach you what you just said, can teach you to unlatch. And also, what wonderful, brilliant things to have learnt, and to have learnt them early, and to have within you. To be a hustler, to beautifully scramble. It's not like you're scrambling in utter, awful, affecting chaos. Your scrambling is brilliant for the rest of us. We're enjoying the ride.
Katherine May:
I love scrambling. I'm happiest when I'm improvising. And yeah, I find life very hard when I know exactly what I've got to do, and it's all mapped out in front of me, and it's all achievable. And that's the point when I lose interest. I will then make myself a scrambling kind of a situation, I think, in order to get that high.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. I try to sometimes see life visually, and it does always come back down to balance, whenever I'm overthinking one thing or the other. Like I really need to learn calm, and patience, and all of that lovely kind of meditative, brilliant Buddhist stuff. And then there's another part of me that's wanting to escape, and disco dance, and cover myself in glitter and scream. And come up with something completely different to what I thought the day before. Through conversation, and art, and rambunctiousness, and rebellion. So this beautiful discovery, for me, I think essentially is being able to healthfully, safely, joyfully, or even contemplatively pendulum-swing between the different extremes of ourselves. And it just comes back to balance. Like how wonderful to be able to learn the art of scrambling, and the art of patience, and time, and solitude. That's a pretty good course for a life, I think.
Katherine May:
Definitely, and there's [inaudible 00:18:08] time for both. Well, I want to talk... Because actually, you're clearly a really sociable person that is excited by working with other people, and by the kind of ideas that bounce around when you're in company. And so I wanted to talk to you about your lockdown experience, because I gather you were quite alone at the beginning of that.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. So lockdown one, the big lockdown.
Katherine May:
What number are we on now? I don't even know.
Gemma Cairney:
I don't know what anything is anymore. I've just been in isolation because I had you know what, I don't want to say the word.
Katherine May:
Oh man, yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
I'm fine, I'm very grateful that I'm fine. And yeah, I was writing about it last night, and I was calling it the New Year ground-down. [inaudible 00:18:55] I felt like I had to just do some grounding. But I refused to call it a lockdown, or isolation, or just all of these really authoritative words that just make my toes curl. But when we were first getting our mouth around the words and the notion of lockdown, so that must've been from mid-March 2020. And I had just had my birthday, because my birthday is on the 19th of March. And it was one of the most profound times of my life. I've had really profound moments in my life, but this one was not so shiny. It was actually a bit scary, and moody, and it wasn't so dazzling in terms of profound. It was a moment to dig into myself and work out what would be right for me to do.
Katherine May:
So were you still in Margate at this point?
Gemma Cairney:
So it's all very complicated. Thanks for letting me bore you on this.
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:20:01].
Gemma Cairney:
But I was mostly living in a rented room at two of my lovely friends' house in East London, just off Broadway Market. And it was a great pad. It was the bachelorette dream, it was near everything fun and cool.
Katherine May:
Nice.
Gemma Cairney:
And it was reminding me of my old stomping grounds, which was East London. Having moved to the seaside as part of a kind of exodus, which I think happened six years previously. And I had been living in Margate, but I'd always been nomadic in my approach. So I was doing loads of traveling up until that moment. Making a Radio 4 program called The Sound Odyssey, which was all over the world. Recorded everywhere from Colombia to Ethiopia.
Katherine May:
Wow.
Gemma Cairney:
And I was very much in a flow, but very, like you say, like a hustling one. I was taking myself everywhere. I'd have to go and do an event in London, and then I would try and section off periods of time at my place in Margate. So I still had a base in Margate, but I had this room in London. And I was actually spending more time in London, because I was in the middle of... Which I can't be bothered to go into, even though it's sad. And I appreciate sympathy, but I had a neighbour dispute happening at my place in Margate, as well.
Katherine May:
Oh, [crosstalk 00:21:28].
Gemma Cairney:
Just to add to this very frenetic lifestyle anyway. And that was taking up the amount of time that a full-time job would. There were solicitors involved.
Katherine May:
Oh, God.
Gemma Cairney:
And I was getting emails multiple times a day, if not phone calls, from somebody who had moved into the flat below me and really took a real disliking to me personally. And started accusing me of all... It got madder, and madder, and madder over the course of actually nearly two years. I couldn't believe when I got out of it all, because I had just batted it off, because I was so busy. I was just like, "Well, I'll sort this out." Anyway, it was really, really, really, really weird.
Katherine May:
Wow.
Gemma Cairney:
And I felt safer in London at this particular point, despite having a place in Margate.
Katherine May:
Right.
Gemma Cairney:
Financially, everything was a clusterfuck, pardon my French. I was trying to get out of this situation of my Margate base. I was paying for a really expensive London rented room. It was really hardcore. And apologies, this is a warning for some, because it is particularly hard to hear. I had lost a friend of mine unexpectedly, who had decided to end their own life.
Katherine May:
[crosstalk 00:22:53].
Gemma Cairney:
And she was this hugely public figure. So I was in a public mourning for Caroline Flack, who had been a personal friend of mine, too. So everything was-
Katherine May:
Everything at once.
Gemma Cairney:
... a tangle of the hardest things that you might have to deal with. And I was a single woman in my 30s, really trying to pride myself on being robust, optimistic, secure, et cetera, safe, happy. And I was imploding, it was really, really difficult. And then suddenly a global pandemic was looming.
Katherine May:
Which was exactly what you needed at that moment, presumably. Yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
It was just surreal. I was wondering whether I was in a dream. You know when you get really sad, and you don't really feel you're on the planet anyway. And you just sort of maneuver from room to room, or talk to people, but you don't really feel connected. That had been going on for quite a while. And then I was also scrambling, let's say, to try and claw back good stuff. Like I was going to some quite hardcore therapy for the first time. I'd promised my friends that I would consider taking medication to... I was really trying. I was really thinking, "Okay, this is something that's going to have to be addressed. I have to create a framework, because I'm in trouble. This is hard."
Gemma Cairney:
And yeah, then this thing started to be talked about all the time. And it's just really surreal, if I'm honest, it was so surreal. I was just like, "Okay. Right, so I've got all this shit going on with myself, but this is now this thing that's about to affect the whole world." And I'm really sensitive as well. I could feel that it was going to be huge. Which is another reason I think that I was feeling so disorientated anyway.
Katherine May:
[crosstalk 00:25:02] pending doom thing, isn't it, [crosstalk 00:25:04]?
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah.
Katherine May:
I remember that time when it was coming.
Gemma Cairney:
And then [crosstalk 00:25:04] as a human species, I think things were getting too full and fast. And all these kind of odd, or negative, or harsh behaviors that were happening around me, sometimes involving me and sometimes not. But like my neighbor being so mean and horrible, and all of these things that were happening. I do see somehow we may be connected to this kind of impending doom core, you know?
Katherine May:
Yeah, yep.
Gemma Cairney:
Like I mean-
Katherine May:
It's those moments when you feel like everything... You're at the center of this, I don't know, like eye of the storm, and everything is happening to you.
Gemma Cairney:
Yes.
Katherine May:
And it feels... Yeah, it's a very particular feeling.
Gemma Cairney:
Weather is a really good way of making it into the metaphor that I need, I think. [inaudible 00:25:59] being in an eye of a storm, but feeling like humankind was in the storm. It wasn't just me, you know?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
It was a really weird time, I'm not going to lie. And I don't want to be overindulgent either, so I don't all overdo it in terms of it all being about me. Because I think that there was a feeling in the air, I just do. And it's just like a theory that I have. And I also don't want to be too doomy, I don't want to be low. There were so many hard things happening. But all I wanted, in the way that I am, like always trying to jump for the sunshine, searching for it, was to find the ropes and the vines I needed to grab on to see me through.
Gemma Cairney:
And then the universe kind of asked everybody to do that, but in their own way. Everyone was suddenly presented with this time to reflect, and to grapple with our own morals as to what was right or wrong. To search for genuine beauty in confinement. To get in touch with our bodies as to how we prepared to eat our way through a lockdown. Or how we were going to express empathy for the truly vulnerable people in the world and in our society. And it was just an absolute [crosstalk 00:27:41].
Katherine May:
I know. There's no word for it, is there?
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, like, "Whoa." And personally, it presented an opening of looking after myself, truly. Like utterly, properly looking after myself. Because I was so low anyway, and it was literally in my dreams. My dreams said to me like, "Get to the sea. You can't [crosstalk 00:28:11]."
Katherine May:
My dreams always say that to me.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, like the night after my birthday. I'd pretty much cried my way through my birthday, in a kind of like trying to watch a wistful film crying. I'd also created a crown from eucalyptus, from a beautiful bunch of flowers that someone had sent me. And wore my favorite designer, Mary Benson, in a velvet dress. And so I tried to make it an event, it wasn't like wrapped up in bed crying, but that was on the 19th of March, 2020. I was so grief-stricken for everything that had happened with Caroline. And I was just so sad and upset, but I also tried to make that moment poetic or something, I don't know.
Gemma Cairney:
And I kept dreaming about the sea, and then I thought, "Okay, I have to go." So I searched online for Airbnbs. I don't know if I should be saying all of this, but I was looking for a place that would be by the sea that wasn't the place that I owned. Because I didn't feel safe there because of the neighbor dispute. And I hardly had any money. I had just a bit of money from a job, that was not supposed to be used on staying by the sea during a lockdown, during a pandemic.
Katherine May:
But you had to live somewhere.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. But it's really weird, because I had a base in Margate, but honestly I wasn't safe with that person [crosstalk 00:29:47].
Katherine May:
Well, I was going to say, it doesn't sound like that was safe. I mean, that's not a choice, is it? You can't lock yourself down in a building where somebody is being actively menacing.
Gemma Cairney:
Actually making jokes about you putting your head in the oven, it's just not all right.
Katherine May:
It's not okay, [crosstalk 00:30:02].
Gemma Cairney:
So I couldn't go there. And then I had this beautiful pad in London, but it was too small and it wasn't right. I couldn't see my grief dissipating, or my lowness, or the things that... Like a lot of past traumas were coming up. And I just thought, "I can't do that in this small place in the city. So gosh, I'm lucky to be in this position, but this also feels very mad and dramatic. But I'm going to go somewhere else." So I found this place that was really unique, and it was an old shop built into a cliff in Ramsgate. So it was only down the road to my Margate place, which felt good, actually. And I thought, "I will sort that situation out when I have some time [inaudible 00:30:48]." Because I'd tried to sell it three times, and each time the sale had been sabotaged because of this person.
Katherine May:
Oh, my God.
Gemma Cairney:
And I just emailed. I was writing my book, which I'm still writing. And I emailed the owner, and I said, "I've only got this amount of money, not the usual amount of money that it would be to book this place for a month. But would you accept it? Because it's seeming that there's not going to be much tourism in the near future."
Katherine May:
Yeah, in the coming weeks.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. "And can I come and can I write my book?" And then I got a cab, and masked up just before lockdown, because I wanted to have a screen between myself and the driver. Packed my stuff for three hours, and just went to live in a cliff.
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:31:37].
Gemma Cairney:
It's this sort of really unique property that's been built in a cliff.
Katherine May:
That can be quite bleak. I mean, it can be very beautiful, but when the sea is raging, what was it like being in solitude in a place like that?
Gemma Cairney:
It was absolutely astonishingly beautiful.
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gemma Cairney:
It was amazing, and it's exactly what I needed. I'm actually feeling emotional talking about it, because I haven't really talked about it for ages. Because so many other big things have happened that have been beautiful and lovely. And my luck did come, after praying for it. But yeah, it was amazing. I signed up, I was on a coastline that I'm familiar with. I knew that there were people close that were my people, my tribe. So I didn't feel completely alone. I thought it was important to put myself out there in terms of introducing myself to neighbors that seemed open and friendly. And said that, "I'm here on my own, I'm writing my book. I know that a lockdown is about to happen, so I'm not expecting for us to be having parties. But just so that you know that I'm next door." And they were really receptive, and beautiful, and kind. And then the journey just started, this kind of twisted adventure of learning to grieve and keying into myself.
Katherine May:
[crosstalk 00:33:04].
Gemma Cairney:
I don't know what the right way to describe it is, but like-
Katherine May:
Yeah. Sinking down, I guess. Yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, and just becoming so inwards. Because [crosstalk 00:33:16]-
Katherine May:
I mean it's almost monastic, isn't it? I think.
Gemma Cairney:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Katherine May:
It's like a kind of living in a cell in a abbey somewhere in the 14th century, or something.
Gemma Cairney:
I mean, I was lucky because it was so beautiful. So I loved the raging sea at night. The first few nights I couldn't really sleep. And I just thought, "Oh, well, I've got loads of nights to sleep. I've got days to sleep. I've got loads of time to sleep. We're going to be locked down for a while. So if I can't sleep now, don't panic." And I just remember saying to myself, I was like, "Just listen to the sea. You know the sea is your friend, or it speaks to you, at least. Or it's so brilliantly changeable, and ferocious, and big that it puts things into perspective. And this isn't just about me." And then my imagination got me through, which it does often anyway. But my imagination is so ridiculous, and epic. And where I was geographically, and how this house had been built overlooking the sea. I could open up doors from my bedroom. There was a freestanding bath. It was a really nice, special place to be. It wasn't particularly bougie, but it was really unique.
Katherine May:
It sounds wild. It sounds like a-
Gemma Cairney:
It was quite wild. It's really hard to explain, but it was very unique. And I opened up the door so I could hear the sea. And I started swimming, which I do anyway. But I was going in in the cold, and sort of doing the haka or something like [inaudible 00:34:48] to myself. In fact, the amazing neighbors who lived a few doors down, who I'd reached out to and said, "Just so you know, I'm here on my own. Will I be okay, do you think? Is this a safe place?" [inaudible 00:35:02] whatever. And they'd seen me running across the beach, literally punching the air, and screaming, and preparing to get into the freezing cold water. And I got a text saying, "We saw you. Not only did you swim, but you were doing some ritualistic dancing before you got in."
Katherine May:
I love that.
Gemma Cairney:
And I loved it. It was a beautiful friend called Wendy, they've become friends. But she said, "We think you're really rock and roll."
Katherine May:
That's brilliant.
Gemma Cairney:
And I just thought, "Yeah, I am." And that was helping acclimatize to cold water and having that freedom of beach every day. I also thought about the art of reaching out being really important. I've sort of became a bit obsessed with it. I wanted to connect. I knew I was on my own, but I knew that it was so important to always stay connected. Even though I was very emotionally vulnerable, I needed love and people. So I tried to show love and I tried to inhabit love.
Katherine May:
I'm just taking a pause to let you know about my very exciting new Patreon feed. If you love The Wintering Sessions and would to help it grow, you can now become a patron. Subscribers will get an exclusive monthly podcast in which I talk about the books, culture, and the news that are currently inspiring me. You'll also get the chance to submit questions to my guests in advance of recordings. And the answers will go into a special extended edition of the podcast that only patrons receive, and a day early, too. Plus you'll get discounts and early booking links to my courses and events. And your podcast will always be ad-free.
Katherine May:
If this sounds like your kind of thing, I have a special offer. The first 30 patrons will be able to join at a discounted rate of $3 a month for life. So do get in early and help to build the community from the foundations. Go to patreon.com/katherinemay, or follow the link in my bio to subscribe. And please don't worry if this isn't for you, the regular version of The Wintering Sessions will still be free, and I really appreciate your listens. Now back to the show.
Katherine May:
What did that do for you, that time? I mean, did you... Oh, I don't know what I'm asking in lots of ways. I was about to say, "Did it make you more productive?" But I don't mean productive as in like, "Were you a good little agent of capitalism turning out lots of work and a book?" But what I mean is what did it do to your creative self? What did it do to your pattern of living?
Gemma Cairney:
It was really unexpectedly pleasant. Because once you move through... I don't think it's rage, but almost outrage of the situation and things that just aren't fair. Like I got loads of work withdrawn, so I lost out on loads of planned money. And some of it felt really distasteful, let's say, in terms of the decisions that big organizations were making, where I clearly wasn't a priority. Firstly, I can't sit in that outrage for too long, because it's not like I don't expect certain spaces to let me down and not prioritize me. So again, you just have to like... I don't know why I was talking about this as a sort of life lesson for us all, but I had to. I had to choose where to put my energy. And I could've just been stuck in a real negative space, but I chose the opposite, I chose to learn. I see it as a learning, like I chose to learn to move through grief.
Katherine May:
Yeah. And so many different griefs at once. Not just one grief, but the loss of a friend, the loss of a home, and the whole vision that comes with losing a home. You lose that, too. The loss of work, the loss of the... Well, we all went through that loss of independence in a lockdown that felt so violent, actually.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:40:02].
Katherine May:
Even though we were submitting to it willingly. Yeah, it's a lot of loss in one go.
Gemma Cairney:
But I learnt the motions of it in order to stay afloat. We all, like you say, have had to deal with something. I think violent is a good word. But what certain elements of my career or my life have been through, or represent up until now, was very much being controlled by the puppets of this kind of quite toxic capitalism, this patriarchal thinking. The normalization of perfectionism, et cetera, et cetera. All of the stuff that we're working through now, I think, quite openly.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Well, it began during that time, didn't it? I mean it [crosstalk 00:40:56] exploded in that time.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:40:57] that began during that time in terms of unpicking it. But in terms of the effects of all of those things, being a woman, being Black, growing up in the UK. Having dealt with all the things I have anyway, I've had to deal with that violence always. So it actually provided space and time to learn how to protect myself from that. Because actually, I'm in an industry that never gives you that.
Katherine May:
No.
Gemma Cairney:
It doesn't give you the time to think about whether saying yes to that particular campaign is going to make your back ache because it feels really uncomfortable, you know?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
It doesn't give you the opportunity to turn everything off and say, "I choose to partake in an alternative practice for five days straight." or whatever. That's so broad, but like doing stuff [crosstalk 00:41:59].
Katherine May:
Yeah, sure.
Gemma Cairney:
It doesn't let you. I don't work in a role where you're allowed to turn off. And societally, we can understand that more, all of us, it's much more resonant because we are always switched on to so many different things. But I was before everybody else was, too, because I chose to do a job that is associated with a sense of public ownership, or discussion, or-
Katherine May:
Well, and massive uncertainty as well. Those careers can just disappear in an instant if you fall out of favor. And it's quite a terrifying world to work in, I think, in some ways.
Gemma Cairney:
It's really, it's absolutely insane. [inaudible 00:42:42] it's really, really a weird world. But it's very alluring, particularly when you're young. And it can take you in amazing places, and connect you to some of the greatest thinkers on the planet. Or you can earn enough money to travel and to fill your house with things that make your heart sing. There's all these opportunities, opportunity is important to focus on. And there are so many opportunities within the industry side of my world, as well as the artistic expression side. And it's very dazzling, but it's very full-on. And it will not nurture, or protect me, or anything that I've dealt with as a human being. So I had to learn how to do that myself. Because otherwise there's many, many, many, many, many different also rigorously active grafting souls that will lead you in all sorts of different directions. And everyone has got their own prerogative, but you have to learn your path, how to lay your path. Only you can really do that.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Yeah. So in the aftermath, when everything opened up again and life went a bit back to normal, although it still isn't, but yeah. Yeah, sorry. I mean it feels normal now, but as soon as I said that, I was like, "This isn't normal. What am I talking about?" I'm still sticking a cotton-wool stick five inches up my nose every two days, that's not normal. But I can do it without blinking now, which I think is quite impressive. But yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
[inaudible 00:44:28] we're really tough. We can absolutely do this. We can get through stuff, we really can. It's just about being gentle at the right times, and then tough at the other. It's really weird.
Katherine May:
It's knowing when to soften. But what have you brought from that time into your life now? How have you been permanently changed by it? And what bits did you leave behind in that little house in the cliff in Ramsgate?
Gemma Cairney:
Oh, what a time, what a time. Oh, well, I started to have fun. You mentioned creatively what it did for me, and actually what it did for me was to move on from despair, let's say, or all that kind of stuff, outrage, to playtime.
Katherine May:
That's great.
Gemma Cairney:
And not only was I doing my dancing on the beach and then swimming, I was activated in a really special way that politically the tides were changing. Like the resurgence of Black Lives Matter was so visceral. It opened up a space to talk and to find language about things that essentially have been oppressive for so long. And I was going with that, and it allowed me to believe in myself as a creative. I really do believe in myself as somebody that's meant to talk. I want to talk, I want to be part of the movement. So I, every Tuesday, was chatting to a friend of mine, Lola, on Instagram Live that became really weird. It became like a talk show [inaudible 00:46:22], but it was just a way of connecting, at first. She asked me if I wanted to do it. She's a journalist and a writer. And she's British and is based in New York, and has been for many years. So we would just talk every Tuesday lunch.
Katherine May:
Just have a chat.
Gemma Cairney:
And compare notes from being solo, lockdown, single women, but with the Atlantic in between us, which was really fun. And then it became a bit more serious at points because of the world around us, but-
Katherine May:
Yeah, there was such a lot to take seriously at that point, wasn't there?
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. But it was an experimentation in connection, that particular chat. And we'd get quite a few people watching [inaudible 00:46:58], "This is kind of cool." And I really felt activated in the moment. I didn't write loads of my book, because that felt very [crosstalk 00:47:07]-
Katherine May:
Nobody wrote loads of their book during lockdown, don't worry about it.
Gemma Cairney:
Well, some people did.
Katherine May:
I didn't either.
Gemma Cairney:
Some people did. But I did write, and I was active on Patreon, and I've been growing my page. And felt really responsive to day-to-day feelings and wanting to write them down and create from it. And I also started my own radio show, which I'm really proud of. And that was one of those things. You know when proper artists talk about how things come through them?
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gemma Cairney:
Or I've heard writers talk about it as well, where they just feel like they are doing something, but they don't even have to think about it too much.
Katherine May:
You just channel stuff, yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
I knew that I needed to broadcast. I was gutted that I couldn't do the live radio that I'm used to, so I just created my own. And I brought together people that I thought might help me. And I self-funded it, did a completely independent show every Wednesday night between 9:00 and 11:00.
Katherine May:
That's amazing.
Gemma Cairney:
And put together the playlist gleefully, spoke to writers all around the world and got them to read live on air. Had conversations with people from motivational speakers in Washington, to a psychotherapist who's on the frontline in Amsterdam. To a Scottish poet called Billy Letford, who was on lockdown and stuck in Thailand. It was amazing. And that was just down in a bunker where I was socially distanced from two tech people. And in a nightclub in Margate that used to host-
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:48:46].
Gemma Cairney:
It used to host my club night when I was living there, called Gem's Jams.
Katherine May:
Oh.
Gemma Cairney:
And suddenly we turned it into a radio station. And it was so, again, an experiment in connection, and one that was so fulfilling.
Katherine May:
I just love that. Obviously we can't talk about the pandemic without talking about how hard it was, and how awful it was for loads of people. But at the same time, what I'm hearing over and over again is people doing stuff from the gut. Like, "I have to do this. I have to communicate this. I have to make this." But also finding new ways to do it. Because I bet you wouldn't have considered launching your own completely independent radio show before then. I love the [crosstalk 00:49:32].
Gemma Cairney:
I have a very overactive mind, I would think about it. [crosstalk 00:49:37], but the big difference for me is I absolutely wouldn't have the time. I wouldn't, because I'll be pulled in different directions for things that are deemed more important, more financially feasible. Have so many companies or bosses attach that [inaudible 00:49:58] that I don't have the time for that freedom, that play, that DIY momentum, and that gut thing that you described. I live by mine, I've had it always. But it's definitely been really resonant over the past couple of years.
Katherine May:
Yeah, yeah. Well, we've needed it because there's no road map, and you've got to follow something. And actually, I think a lot of people have tuned back into those gut instincts that they've been suppressing for a very long time. And that's good, right? That's [crosstalk 00:50:35].
Gemma Cairney:
Oh, it's so nice. I'm really relieved for that. There are so many things that have broken my heart, but then there's also been so many ingredients to mend bits of it as well, and that's one of them. People being softer, people falling in love with nature. People understanding my tribal dance before I get in the sea.
Katherine May:
I wish you had a video of that.
Gemma Cairney:
It can be recreated anytime.
Katherine May:
I think you should start a club, and we'll all get together and do your tribal dance before a swim.
Gemma Cairney:
Yes, [crosstalk 00:51:09].
Katherine May:
I mean, I just need you to teach me this skill. I swim, but I don't dance first.
Gemma Cairney:
Obviously it's quite weird. It's just like punching the air and like [inaudible 00:51:17] your bottom.
Katherine May:
Sounds beautiful. It sounds like a beautiful thing.
Gemma Cairney:
My boyfriend has to be subjected to it on a regular basis. But yeah, Nightwaves is the name of the radio show, and it's on Mixcloud. And there are 20 shows there that I just think are so special.
Katherine May:
Ah, [inaudible 00:51:36].
Gemma Cairney:
So if anybody listening wants to delve into what that feeling of solitude, and grief, and sea, and journey was like, then you can actually... There was a documentation of it.
Katherine May:
That's just lovely. And that's how this podcast started as well, a similar instinct. Like I wanted to talk to people. I wanted to make contact with other writers, and talk about this moment and other moments that were like it. And just to produce something in that kind of free-floating time when you just weren't sure what was going to happen next, and couldn't plan. And I still feel like we can't plan, and I think that might be quite good for us in lots of ways, actually.
Gemma Cairney:
Yes. Societally we've become so entrenched in planning and being sensible. But nobody is doing the right thing, like the right thing with a capital T.
Katherine May:
No.
Gemma Cairney:
It's really hard to know what it is. Especially when even our actual government, I mean [inaudible 00:52:42] again, words that I don't really like to say, are not posing as authoritative, solid... You know?
Katherine May:
Yeah, I know. They're not being the grown-ups.
Gemma Cairney:
Community-care thinking in any particular way.
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:53:00].
Gemma Cairney:
In terms of doing the right thing, or setting the right rules and boundaries. So therefore, I mean this metaphorically rather than literally running into the streets naked if you're on isolation. [inaudible 00:53:11] like, "No, don't be ridiculous [inaudible 00:53:15]."
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:53:15] worth pointing out.
Gemma Cairney:
I mean, laugh about that as an idea. But [inaudible 00:53:20] as a broader, as a bigger picture, flowing with the moment, and being in the moment, and being present is a gift, I think, that this pandemic has given us [inaudible 00:53:35] yeah, and creatively that's so nice. I'm glad that you felt moved to talk to people and that people are getting something from that. Because connection is, I think I found, one of the most important things. In fact, there's a brilliant essay on connection called that. Called On Connection, written by Kae Tempest, I don't know if you've come across it.
Katherine May:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do. I know, it's extraordinary. And I read it during lockdown, actually.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, me too. And I interviewed Kae for Nightwaves.
Katherine May:
[inaudible 00:54:06].
Gemma Cairney:
I had a feature where I would ask artists to take me on a trip and to delve into a kind of transcendental journey. And if they could take me anywhere in the world, whilst we all yearned for travel, where would they take me? And Kae took me to Brazil on a boat.
Katherine May:
Oh, wow.
Gemma Cairney:
And we had the most biblical, almost, conversation that can be listened as a standalone on my Mixcloud channel, or part of the show which we edited it to be part of, too. And I just felt as though Kae is a prophet of our modern times and is such an important voice.
Katherine May:
Oh yeah, they're amazing.
Gemma Cairney:
And I do [crosstalk 00:54:51] and On Connection actually came out after our conversation. And I've been a fan of Kae's for a long time, but the summing up of it and the published essay on how important connection, and writing, and creativity actually is, I think is a must read.
Katherine May:
It really is, I would recommend it to anyone. And actually, I must try and get Kae on the podcast. That would be like the biggest coup in the world, I think.
Gemma Cairney:
Definitely.
Katherine May:
Love to talk to them, yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
Their infinite wisdom and approach to language and expression is a real, again, another gift for us all in these current [inaudible 00:55:27] times.
Katherine May:
Ah. Well, look, there's so much more I'd like to ask you, but I am conscious of your time. And also the listeners, because I think you and I could just talk in this vein for like five hours and we'd still be really happy.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. Well, the quick sum-up, because there's loads of different things that happened after that.
Katherine May:
I love that you sum up, this is great. This is what the professionalism is, "I'm going to sum up now."
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, that's so [crosstalk 00:55:50]. But just in terms of it's quite important to say that though the doldrums were very real, and times were really hard at the beginning of 2020. And the lockdown was not only profoundly creative, et cetera, and fun to dance on the beach. There were moments of serious sadness and thought. Was falling in love, I fell in love as soon as-
Katherine May:
Oh. This is an unexpected twist at the end. What?
Gemma Cairney:
[inaudible 00:56:19]. As soon as we were allowed to actually see people again, somebody came back into my life that I hadn't seen since 2018, on a mountain in Malawi in Africa.
Katherine May:
Oh [inaudible 00:56:29].
Gemma Cairney:
And at the time, he owned an off-grid eco lodge. And I thought he was absolutely gorgeous, but I did think to try and be sensible, in the sense that he lived in Malawi. And in 2020 he found his way back to the UK, and we have been inseparable ever since.
Katherine May:
Oh wow. Oh, that's amazing. And so wow, unexpected outcomes [inaudible 00:56:56].
Gemma Cairney:
Honestly, 2020 was a very, very strange and pivotal year, but it definitely changed my life hugely in ways... I think a lot of people know that 2020 changed their lives, but a lot of it's quite esoteric and perhaps nuanced as to how.
Katherine May:
Yeah, yeah. You've got something really concrete, haven't you, that's come out of that?
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:57:16]. I went on my own into a cliff, and I came out and I found the love of my life. It's just [inaudible 00:57:24].
Katherine May:
It's like a fairy story.
Gemma Cairney:
I thought I would emerge a bitter troll, and actually all the kimono wearing which I had done, which I did a lot of, by the way, as well. That was the other very important part [inaudible 00:57:42]. I wore this silk beach kimono nearly every day.
Katherine May:
Nice. That's a great way to live your life.
Gemma Cairney:
[crosstalk 00:57:49] somehow moved me in the direction of really trying to cultivate the epitome of fabulousness. And I keep trying to dance in that direction ever since.
Katherine May:
That's just, it's just so perfect. And I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy that that could emerge from this time of retreat, and it's like you kindle this fire that's going to take you into the next place in your life, I think.
Gemma Cairney:
Yeah. It's absolutely bananas, it's bonkers. And then since, I've moved to Scotland, where we both have heritage, and it's all been very... I mean one day I'll write it all down, I don't know. I'm just living it at the moment. I'm still in it. It's still flabbergasting me. And I'm still gutted by the many losses and all the injustice in the world. And I'm activated and poised to talk about all of those things. And I'm also find it really important to try and live by example. In terms of believing in healing, and believing in doing the inner work. And just really cultivating who you are, and what makes you feel good, and then good things come.
Katherine May:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Gemma, thank you so much. It has just been amazing to talk [inaudible 00:59:10]. And I just want to book you in for next week and we'll carry the story on [inaudible 00:59:14].
Gemma Cairney:
You just need to listen... Honestly, listen to Nightwaves [inaudible 00:59:18].
Katherine May:
I am totally going to, it sounds incredible.
Gemma Cairney:
You've got music, as well, to break up the big conversation.
Katherine May:
I don't know if I'm emotionally ready.
Gemma Cairney:
It's not all really deep. I think, again, it's that balance of just the light and the shade constantly.
Katherine May:
That sounds amazing. Oh, well, I mean, I know that you've got legions of devoted fans anyway, but I think when you keep innovating like this, it's so exciting. You don't need to do this when you've got a profile like yours, but actually I just love that you do because you're interested in it and you want to explore stuff.
Gemma Cairney:
I do need to do it. I am progress-led always. I absolutely do need to do it. I think there's a lot of things in this world that need changing. And I absolutely need to constantly ask myself the questions as to whether my energy is in the right space. And innovation is completely imperative to that. And also, I would say that reflecting that out there to anybody listening. People have most likely found this free Patreon, for example, which I think is a really interesting independent platform. And I really rate and respect those who are seeking out content for themselves on it. So bravo, high-five, big up. And we all can continue to innovate in terms of what we consume, where we spend our money, how we make our money.
Katherine May:
[inaudible 01:00:53].
Gemma Cairney:
Who we spend our time with, how we get over any of the past that doesn't feel right. All of these things, all of these innovations, from personal, to professional, to public, and environmental, all of these things, we all can do it. There are so many pioneers and avenues of freedom, goodness, a better future for the next generation. So we all, we're doing it by listening to this, and going on Patreon, and making, and connecting. But it doesn't stop, and it doesn't stop at people with big voices. It's all of us.
Katherine May:
But it's such an important point to live by, isn't it? That you get to choose where you put your time, money, and attention. That don't let other people choose those things for you. You make those choices and you make them positive.
Gemma Cairney:
If you can, and it's also all right for it to feel really hard. But know that you're not on your own, and that there's some really good stuff out there.
Katherine May:
There's some really good stuff out there.
Gemma Cairney:
There's some good stuff. Love is lovely. Sea swimming is great.
Katherine May:
Yes, [crosstalk 01:02:08].
Gemma Cairney:
Moving house is stressful whilst it's stressful, and then it becomes [inaudible 01:02:12] wonderful, you know?
Katherine May:
Yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
Cutting cords of toxic people is a little bit bad, and then you feel great.
Katherine May:
Always good.
Gemma Cairney:
Like all of these things, it's worth it.
Katherine May:
Frosty mornings give me life, yeah.
Gemma Cairney:
Oh. I've been in isolation, it's my freedom day tomorrow [inaudible 01:02:29].
Katherine May:
Well, happy freedom day for tomorrow.
Gemma Cairney:
Oh, my God.
Katherine May:
Oh, thank you so much.
Gemma Cairney:
Thank you so much, Katherine. You've been really, really, really open and really allowed me to have a big old meaty chat. And I've talked about things I haven't talked about in ages.
Katherine May:
Oh, I love chats like that. I don't see the point in any other kind of chat.
Gemma Cairney:
Oh, it's crazy to reflect [inaudible 01:02:55] emotional, but yeah, it's also, I'm quite proud of myself.
Katherine May:
You are, you should be. Oh my God, you should be.
Gemma Cairney:
And I think we should all be proud of ourselves.
Katherine May:
Yes. We have all come through a lot this year. A lot [inaudible 01:03:14].
Katherine May:
I'm back out of my bath now. I'm as pink as a lobster. I considered recording you a podcast segment in which I was in the bath, but I felt like naked podcasting was a bit too weird. And also, I was worried about my phone. Very sensibly, given how clumsy I am. I would've drowned my phone in moments. I think they're waterproof now, thank goodness, but even so. It's funny how we have to talk about this stuff, isn't it? How we take care of ourselves. It's part of my resistance that I talk about quite a lot, to looking busy for the sake of it, I think. I do everything I can and I don't always succeed not to be busy unnecessarily, and not to say, "I'm busy." when I'm asked. That's like my reflex for the whole of my life, to reply to the question, "How are you?" "Oh, busy." Busy is not the answer to, "How are you?"
Katherine May:
You can be good busy, you can be terrible busy, but you can also be not busy. I've had some really grimly busy times in my life over the last few years. Some impossibly busy times where I'm busy because there are too many pressures crushing me from every direction. And I'm trying really hard to learn not to be busy. And to say, "I have enough. I have enough to live on at the moment." Haven't always, you know? I have enough work. I don't need to fill my days unnecessarily. Anyway, that's a long way round of saying that I just loved what Gemma told us about how she took care of herself when everything felt like it was getting lost. That fear of being nothing. That fear of not having a home, of not having anywhere to settle or belong, and the things you might do in the face of that. I just thought it was such a beautiful story. I hope you enjoyed it, too.
Katherine May:
And I wish you many hot baths, or whatever the thing is that soothes you. Not everyone likes hot baths. Not everyone can have hot baths. But they're my thing for now until the day that they can't prize me into them anymore, and then I'll have to find another thing, dammit. Anyway, thank you for listening. I wanted to say a huge thank you to my Patreons or my patrons, I still don't know what to call them. They're really lovely, though. I feel like jumping in and supporting this podcast. What that means is that I don't have to stop this season in a couple of episodes as I would've done without my Patreons.
Katherine May:
I still don't cover all the podcast expenses from what they bring, but it really helps. It means that I can do more and I can do it in a kind of relaxed way. It's making a lot possible, and I'm so grateful for it. It's just so wonderful to have partners in crime. I'm about to record a bonus episode where I answer loads of their questions, and I just can't imagine anything much more fun, to be honest. I hope they find it fun in return. But yeah, it's a joy, so thank you. And if you'd to support the podcast, please consider it. At least take a look around. It's at patreon.com/katherinemay. But if you can't do that, that's fine, too. I always used to worry such a lot when I heard this stuff when I didn't have any money in my pocket. And think, "Oh, I can't help. I'm not valued." You are. You really are. I love it that you all listen, so thank you.
Katherine May:
And thank you to Gemma. To my producer, Buddy, who untangles all these crazy ramblings about being in the bath. I don't know what he thinks of it. It's probably best I don't. And thanks to Meghan who looks after the Patreons so beautifully, and me. It's another little artefact of my self care that I never thought I deserved. And now I realise I need it to cope without burning myself out. Anyway, I'll see you all next time with more brilliant guests. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.
Show Notes
Welcome to the Wintering Sessions with Katherine May.
This week Katherine chats to Gemma Cairney, presenter, curator of greatness and author of ‘Open: A Toolkit...’ and more. There's a strong chance you're familiar with Gemma through her prolific radio and broadcast career, but if not - as you've surely come to notice over the Wintering podcast - you're about to meet another new best friend. Gemma's been grinding and hustling since the early days of her media work which kicked off at the BBC, and Katherine checks in with her at a point in her life where so many of the experiences along the way are truly forming some epic life chapters which have to be heard. What you'll hear in this episode is a spirit of turning lemons not only into lemonade, but an amazing lemon salad dressing as well as some incredible lemon jewellery too. From a whirlwind which synchronised around the time of the early days of the pandemic, this is a glorious and uplifting chat where we find Gemma at a reflective, wise and refreshed place. You'll enjoy it as a fan of Gemma or as a newly acquainted listener - and in either case, have a look at what she's been up to in case you've missed anything (including a ton of sea swimming of course). Wintering Sessions listeners, please enjoy!
We talk about:
Grafting and keeping in motion through grafting
Continuing to learn through life
Motion of gratitude, and working through hectic moments in life
Learn lessons of time over/through time
Balance
Scrambling over pre-meditation
Living in a cliff
Dance before swimming
Powering through lockdown with own brand of positivity and hard work
Powering through also with mind control and instinct
Links from this episode:
Gemma’s Instagram
Gemma’s Twitter
Gemma’s Patreon
Gemma’s book, Open: A Toolkit
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