Aimee Nezhukumatathil on nurturing wonder through nature
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Aimee Nezhukumatathil on nurturing wonder through nature
———
This week Katherine chats to Aimee Nezhukumatathil, author of ‘World Of Wonders’ and more.
Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!
Listen to the Episode
-
Katherine May:
This week, I've been trying to get down to the beach at sunset. It's not always easy to find the time but the skies have been really clear so the sunsets are spectacular. So easy to miss them. So easy to forget that they're there but these perfect, cold, frosty winter days are actually really precious. Just as I was coming down to the beach, I noticed that the moon is high over the town. It's waxing gibbous in a clear blue sky, dark blue now that the sun's coming down, it's just touching the horizon. The tide's out so I'm scratching about on the seabed, which will ruin my boots. And there are big crowds of starlings flying together, murmurating. I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a verb. Down here on the beach, it's quite busy actually. People come out with the sun, they're all taking photos. I will be too, in a moment.
Katherine May:
The oystermen are still harvesting from the frames. All of the houses are lit up, golden with the low sun. Two planes are crossing in the sky, leaving their vapour trails like a kiss. And the sea is the most extraordinary silver blue. And it always feels at this time in the afternoon like it's charging up with the last of the sun and after it goes down, there will be this glow as if it's luminescent. It's reflecting the big orange ball in all the puddles left on the seabed at the moment. So lovely.
Katherine May:
It's a really good moment to set the scene for my conversation with Aimee Nezhukumatathil, the memoirist and poet who speaks so well of rare things, of the things in nature that are not ordinary, not small and brown like the birds that I see in my back garden, but wonderful and elaborate and kind of abundant past what even seems necessary. And she draws some very light and beautiful comparisons between that and herself as a child who seemed strange within the environment she landed in. She describes it much better than I can but I love the comparison she makes between herself and the peacocks that filled her house that almost seemed to offend her teacher when she drew them in school. And yet who doesn't want peacocks, honestly? I loved our conversation. Again, it's such a privilege to talk with these amazing writers who I could never fly out and meet. I hope you enjoy it and I'll return this to the beach in a moment, hopefully when the sun's gone down.
Katherine May:
Aimee, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for talking to me today. I'm really excited.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Thank you, Katherine.
Katherine May:
We were on the same list last year, on the Barnes and Noble list, which you won. And I was curious about your book then and I managed to get hold of a copy and loved it. I've waited all this time. I've waited a year to talk to you so it's really exciting.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Thank you. Thank you. Yes, there was some formidable titles in that round. I'm just so excited to be able to chat with you because I'm sure you get this a lot but after reading your book, I just was like, I could just spend a whole afternoon in a coffee shop with her chatting. Anyway, it's great fun. This was written in glitter on my planner today.
Katherine May:
Oh wow. I got the glitter.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
The things that I like to do are written in glitter pens. The things that I don't like to do are just in black ink.
Katherine May:
Well, I am thrilled to have got glitter. Thank you so much. It's the time of year for it too. There's so much I'd love to talk to you about today and obviously I'll be focusing on your book, World of Wonders, but I wanted to touch on, first of all, you started as a poet and you've moved into very poetic prose.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
That's right.
Katherine May:
How was that transition for you? What was that like?
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
It was so kind of fun and liberating. I've always loved, I'm still poet. Some of my poet friends grumble, "Oh, so you're leaving poetry now." No, no, no. In fact just yesterday I was writing poetry but I think, I've given it lots of thought over the year and I think what was so liberating for me is that it was just simply the unspooling and the unfurling of a complete thought that I didn't have to worry about a line break simply. I simply didn't have to worry about a line break. And so my sentences could be really luxurious and I could play around with when I need to reign myself in with a three word sentence or a full on a sentence that was almost 75 words, things like that. It just great fun to be able in what I wanted to speak about, about nature and growing up in nature, I did not want to feel constricted by a line break simply.
Katherine May:
Yeah. And it feels like you had this kind of wellspring of things that have been waiting a long time to be said and that you maybe needed to say them quite directly. About growing up as a Brown person amongst White people and the way that your differences were marked out and that amazing comparison you make over and over again between yourself and these remarkable creatures because the animals you talk about are not mundane, are they? They're not the kind of animals we see all the time. They're special. They're fantastic.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. Yeah. They are. I have very purposely chose animals that aren't normally thought of as pets really or shouldn't be thought of as pets for sure. And yet I also did want to include things like a monarch butterfly, maybe something that people have seen in the wild. An octopus, for example or dragon fruit. My cousins in the Philippines in India don't think a dragon fruit is all different. That kind of thing.
Katherine May:
No, of course not. No, no.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I wanted it to be a blend but definitely I wanted more animals than not to be animals that people weren't familiar with overall, animals and plants that people weren't familiar with overall. So that we could all feel like students and that we're still all students. We should be anyway. I'm no expert on these animal by no means. I'm not a scientist and I'm still learning about these animals still now. It's in print but I still find things, oh, I wish I could have added this or this.
Katherine May:
That's the curse of writing books, I think, that there's always something that you read afterwards. But I got the sense of nature in your book as being something that was exuberantly gifted and full of extremes almost. The fireflies that are bioluminescent, the peacocks, the narwhals, the, I don't know, all of these incredible creatures that you can't help but wonder at. Wonderlands in your lap when you read about them, you'd be a very cold person not to be completely fascinated.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I hope. That's really, that was kind of, I didn't sit down with that goal but that's kind of the end hope that I have is that it becomes contagious. I definitely didn't want to wag my finger and make people feel guilty or scare people or anything like that, because that's how it works in real life for me. I get excited about things that my friends and loved ones get excited about, even if I really have no interest at first. It becomes kind of contagious.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And I just thought, where are those? And there's definitely places and times for those books that scare me and send me into a rage, oh, I'm so mad at this injustice and things like that. At the time I was writing this, I just wanted wonder to be contagious. And that's kind of what I bet on is that I hope. I don't see a whole lot of it in the world but I hope that it becomes something that, oh, now you don't have to put down the book and change your entire life but maybe one small thing or maybe you notice something on the way to work that you didn't notice the before because your eyes are more open to wonder.
Katherine May:
And I was moved at so many points in the book at the way you juxtaposed your story with the stories of the animals and it was hard not to draw lines between you and them. And the first one that really hit me, I think, was your peacocks, you drawing a peacock at school and telling that story. Can you tell that story for us? Because perhaps everyone hasn't read your wonderful book yet but a peacock was kind of every day to you but it wasn't at school.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. That's right. It's funny, I'm a child of the 80s and in the 80s all I wanted to do was kind of be Madonna or Cyndi Lauper or something audacious. And to me, the peacock was that kind of a bird, something so flamboyant and yet at the same time, it didn't seem out of the ordinary to me because I had kind of grown up with them in my home. For those who don't know, the peacock is the national bird of India so we had peacock paintings and different peacock little sculptures and statues and just all kinds of wall hangings and decor in my house growing up. During a project, there was an art project where we were supposed to just draw an animal that we wanted to learn about or one of our favourite animals. I chose the peacock and it was something just so, it's one of those things that you kind of forget that it happened because I just kind of put it out my mind until I really paused.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I'm a professor now, I'm a mother and I look at that incident with fresh eyes thinking, that was really messed up and quite mean. But the gist of it is, is I had a teacher who, when she saw that I was drawing a peacock claimed that it was un-American somehow and that we should only draw American animals.
Katherine May:
Wow.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Even though that was never part of the assignment. I looked to my left, I looked to my right, my friends were just drawing cats and puppies and dogs, maybe a rabbit, a snake. And I just, the way she went about kind of singling me out, keeping me in during recess so that I could finish. I just redrew, she said she wanted something American so I redrew the whole project, started from scratch and drew a bald eagle, an American bald eagle.
Katherine May:
Wow.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And it was so, I remember just wanting to, just get it over with, get done with it. And then to make matters worse, it won first place in the school. I was just so ashamed because it's not what I wanted. And as a result, I didn't have the words for it then but it made me so, that was the beginning of me being so deeply ashamed about anything from India. I just wanted to be anything that was on MTV and if it wasn't on MTV, I didn't want a part of it. And of course it's so silly and stupid.
Katherine May:
Oh but how can you avoid it because children, well, I think most children want to feel like they belong and your story is a perfect distillation of being like forced to belong in a really uncomfortable way rather than finding your place in a diverse world.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's definitely a different time than my children have grown up with all kinds of superheroes and even their cartoons are super diverse, things like that. But me, there was simply no Asian-Americans in the States on television, let alone just being outside. If I did see an Asian-American, they were the kind of the nerdy stereotype of working with computers and that was definitely not me.
Katherine May:
You knew that already.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Exactly. And it did. Again, I did not have the vocabulary for it but I could see how I was digesting, are Asians not supposed to even be in a forest? Are they not supposed to be outside? It sounds so silly now but my White husband would be the first person to say how strange it was to not grow up with any depictions of Asian-Americans in books, in TV and movies. Just simply standing outside. Or having to crush or anything kind of so called normal, that kind of thing.
Katherine May:
Nothing to refer to basically.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Nothing to refer to. It's funny I really was writing this just for my kids. I was not thinking, I'm going to sit down and write a book. That came much, much later. I just really wanted to remember these instances of joy and a little bit of sadness but mostly how I felt being outside because I wanted them to see that.
Katherine May:
Do you feel like it has changed for them sufficiently for this to be necessary? You're recording a very distinct period of time. I think we're both born in the same year actually. Which I recognise that time a lot but obviously from a really different perspective. But do you feel like it has changed a lot?
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I think there's definitely room for improvement.
Katherine May:
It's not a finished job yet.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
It's not a finished job yet. But I think we are moving towards, I think a society that embraces difference more than and treats it kind of like as a superpower rather than something to be ashamed of. No, definitely there are places that can be a lot better in that but I'm talking about all different. Just the other day I was talking with my youngest son of how many kids are in his school in a wheelchair or kids that are a little bit slower academically. And how are they treated in the cafeteria? Things like that where in the 80s, oh my goodness, so many of them, at least in my schools, were treated like pariahs. Kind of the outcasts. And I know that because I was friends with them.
Katherine May:
Yeah, you hung out with those people.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I hung out with those people but I also had the bridge into, I had kind of a smart mouth and I was kind of teacher's pet. I kind of bridged. I couldn't completely be the outcast because teachers mostly, except for that one horrid one, adored me and I had a snappy mouth, so my friends kind of laughed. But I also was a noticer. I was a big noticer. I noticed when there was a quiet kid, I noticed when a kid was being teased and I tried my best to step in. And I wasn't always successful but I'm so heartened to hear from my kids that it just simply wouldn't be tolerated at their school. It just would not. They're horrified when they hear my stories, they just, how could you be eating alone in the cafeteria? That just wouldn't happen simply now.
Katherine May:
Wow. That's so heartening.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. That is so heartening.
Katherine May:
It's lovely to note that change but also imagine being in a society where you don't want peacocks.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yes. I know. It is so strange.
Katherine May:
Why would you reject a peacock? A peacock's great.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. Or have this weird sense of nationalism and take it out on a third grader.
Katherine May:
That's crazy.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I'm an eight year old girl. Anyway, so who was born in the States but just was taught by her parents to appreciate all differences. And I just want to say too, it's not just racial differences. It's my kids have friends who are Muslim, who are Latino, who have two mommies, things like that. And I think those things, not that this is only happening now. I think that had to be kept hidden so much in the 80s and if it was exposed, it was I think, a dangerous time.
Katherine May:
Yeah. It was.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
A totally different time. That makes me heartened that it's just nothing for my kids to say, "Oh, that's Ben with two mommies," something like that. And that's just a given, nothing strange.
Katherine May:
Yeah. Kids adapt so easily and we never realise. But there was so much shame when we were kids. You kept stuff secret. Anything.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Even things like divorce. Exactly. Divorce was a hidden thing. And I remember my friends going through it and keeping quiet, "Aimee, please don't tell anyone." And I didn't, but I just feel for those kids who felt like they had to keep it.
Katherine May:
Had to hide stuff.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. And to not see their lives depicted in TV or books or something like that. Or I think we were just on the bubble of that.
Katherine May:
Oh yeah. My parents were divorced and I remember a point in the mid 80s when a couple of our politicians were talking about single mothers as scroungers and scourges on society.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Absolutely.
Katherine May:
It was really politicizing. I have to say, as an eight, nine year old hearing that, I remember thinking, well, I just know that's not true. I know how hard my mom has to work for absolutely everything. And I don't think it had the effect they wanted it to have actually.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. Thank goodness. But it was very much, instead of being championed, look at the strength and resilience of these single parents. It was like, I absolutely remember that. And I think that is all but gone.
Katherine May:
I hope so. I hope so.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
At least talking to 14 year olds and 11 year olds. That just doesn't even occur to them. Or at least they have really good friends who would never dare dream of talking like that to one another.
Katherine May:
Thank goodness for that. And so your parents were both working in medicine.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
They were. Yes.
Katherine May:
And so you had to move around fair amount for your mom's job, I think didn't you? You you were kind of going to different hospitals and things like that.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. They're both retired now. But at the time my mother was a psychiatrist and we moved around from state mental institutions to state mental institutions. About three times in my life, we had an actual home but the other times we were living on the grounds of a mental institution. You can imagine that made for at least in the beginning, the kids would say, "What's going on? Are you a patient?" The words they used then was inmate. Are you a patient? Are you a resident? Things like that and say, "No, no, no. It's for my mom." And at the time my parents had to be separated for work. And it was, talk about my mom wasn't exactly a single mom, but single mom for all intents and purposes.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And for about four years of my life, we lived on the grounds because it was safer for her to do so. If she had to get called away in the middle of the night, she also knew us being in a facility like that with a ton of security around was actually a good thing. And I was so proud of her.
Katherine May:
Yeah, wow.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
For making her way doing this. She's Filipino. She wasn't always treated the best but the places that my parents, we were all treated the best was outside. We were. They taught me how to be just so much at peace outside. And still now that's still my happy place is being outdoors in a garden or in taking walks in the forest.
Katherine May:
And you talk about walking on is it Camelback Mountain with your dad?
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yes.
Katherine May:
He was obviously a really keen hiker but this point where you noticed that you never saw any other Asian-Americans there, that actually, that access to nature is incredibly White in general. In my country too, it's definitely there are loads of accounts of people feeling intimidated if they're not White and are accessing the countryside and often the communities around the most rural places can feel, did you ever feel kind of threatened? Or was it just more that you, again, that you didn't see that analog of yourself accessing nature?
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. Thankfully I don't recall ever feeling kind of threatened like that but it was absolutely. I'm laughing not because the subject is funny but I'm laughing, as you know sometimes you get strange emails from strangers.
Katherine May:
Yes I do. Yes.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Just this morning, actually, just before we logged on together, someone said, "Why do you have to talk about Brown skin outside all the time? Can't you just go on a hike?"
Katherine May:
Well, you can't, no.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And my answer to that, I just chuckled as, why, I would love to but it was something that I just noticed. Can I not notice these things? I didn't cry about it. I didn't whine about it. And even in the book, I'm not whining about it. It's just something that I absolutely noticed.
Katherine May:
But when people say that that's like, don't draw my attention to an uncomfortable thing. Thank you very much.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Exactly. And it's funny, it's funnily enough, it is White people who say, "Oh, you must be Aztec with your last name." Or, "Oh, where are you? What are you?" That kind of thing. And then they say, they're the same people who say, "Why do you have to make this about race?" Well, I didn't, you did. You did all my life.
Katherine May:
I didn't start this.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I didn't start it.
Katherine May:
Wow.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I just wanted to look at flowers.
Katherine May:
That's extraordinary.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And so I think just to spin it around, I celebrate that my dad, in his early 30s, my parents traded us at one point. My dad was taking care of us for a few years while my mom had to work in places where it was not acceptable to have kids. And my parents wanted my sister and I to be stable so we stayed with my dad in Arizona, which is full of mountains and you could just be outside all day long. And it was so, so great. But my dad, gosh, it's just extraordinary looking back to it. I'm so grateful for it that he made it a point, I don't think he ever said, "Well, one day my daughter will be a poet." In fact, the opposite. He was hoping that I would be a doctor just like my mom.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
But he made it a point, no matter how tired he was, two things, either he took us to the library or he took us hiking. And I'm just so grateful for that because that's not something that I'm sure he saw other people that looked like him doing. And he did it. And I don't know if anybody muttered any slurs to him or anything like that. If it happened, he never let us know. And I just felt so safe up there with my dad and so joyful. It's so exuberant. Look at all these rocks to learn the names of and things like that. And I realized that must have been so hard to do for an Indian man by himself.
Katherine May:
Yeah. But it's obviously started this lifelong relationship for you. And I just love the bit in your book about going outside and talking to birds. Unlike your husband, not knowing about it.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Exactly. That too was from my father. And it's the silliest party trick in the world but being able to talk to cardinals is something that I learned since I was little. An angry ornithologist, please don't email me saying that my bird calls are wrong because I know I'm not a scientist but it's true. What can I say? I have proof. I have dozens of witnesses who can vouch for me but I know how to call cardinals. And it is, it's just one thing that I kind of, it just never occurred to me to share that when I was penned until about a decade into my marriage. You only get to do something like that, it just reminds me, you only get to do something like that when you have time. Time on your hands, which I know is such a luxury. And I try, I had so much time when I was a kid. And for that I'm so grateful. I could just picture my son's eyes rolling their eyes right now but I did not grow up with screens. I'm guessing you didn't grow up with screens.
Katherine May:
There just wasn't much to watch. There was a bit of kids' TV every afternoon but it was an hour and a half and then you were done. You had to find something to do. I sound really old saying this. I feel embarrassed for myself saying this right now. We made our own entertainment.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yes. No. Oh my goodness. I think we're kindred spirits in that way. And I remember my mother saying, "Only boring people are ever bored."
Katherine May:
Oh, that was my mom's catch phrase too.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh my goodness. And so, it's just, it sounds like I lived such a paltry childhood but I could have a whole afternoon if I found the right stick and if there was a muddy creek, I would be so happy. The things you can do. It makes you sound like I grew up in the middle ages but it truly was. I don't remember being bored. The few times that I said, "Mom, I'm bored." I was snapped back by.
Katherine May:
Yeah, go and do something kind of thing.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. Find something, find your entertainment. And that I think is something that I try, try, try to instill with my boys, that your entertainment shouldn't be connected to electricity. What happens if electricity goes out, what are you going to do?
Katherine May:
I'm just taking a pause to let you know about my very exciting new Patreon feed. If you love the Wintering Sessions and would like to help it grow, you can now become a patron. Subscribers will get an exclusive monthly podcast in which I talk about the books, culture and the news that are currently inspiring me. You'll also get the chance to submit questions to my guests in advance of recordings and the answers will go into a special extended edition of the podcast that only patrons receive and a day early too. Plus you'll get discounts and early booking links to my courses and events and your podcast will always be ad free.
Katherine May:
If this sounds like your kind of thing, I have a special offer. The first 30 patrons will be able to join at a discounted rate of $3 a month for life. Do get in early and help to build the community from the foundations. Go to patreon.com/katherinemay or follow the link in my bio to subscribe. And please don't worry if this isn't for you, the regular version of the Wintering Sessions will still be free and I really appreciate your listens. Now, back to the show.
Katherine May:
Actually we had a lot of power cuts when I was a kid as well. That's another thing my son hasn't experienced but the electricity went out whenever there was a storm or it snowed or high winds, we'd lose electricity. And I remember that being really magical. It was probably hideously stressful for my mom but I don't think we've ever had a power cut since I had my son.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh my goodness.
Katherine May:
It just doesn't happen.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. It was such a magical time. Ooh, break out the candles or the fire, the flashlights. And I don't know, make games with flashlights or something like that. It was this magical time. I think most kids have that in them. It's just sometimes maybe, upon adolescence, they start hearing from their friends or I don't know where they learn it from, but oh, it's not cool to exclaim anymore over a leaf or a patch of mud or something like that. But I think we're all innately drawn to it. My hope is that this book, again, I didn't want to point fingers. My hope is that it gets us to remember that childlike sense of wonder that I think we all have and it's free. It's free.
Katherine May:
It's free and it's a muscle and you lose it if you don't exercise it.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Exactly. That's the point right there, Katherine is that it's a practice. And my goodness now.
Katherine May:
It's a practice.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
40 something mother with a full-time job, it's something that I have to work at every day. And there are times absolutely where I am just short tempered or I just feel so sad about what's going on in the world. But I'm so grateful. It's like a reset button, you kind of reset. The other day, my 11 year old, who's obsessed with baseball and football and now is kind of not the biggest reader. And that's fine. But as an English professor, that's slightly, it was a slight, it gave me pause. But I try to honor his own. And the other day he said, "Mom. Mom look, if you squint." And it was a tree that had almost all of its leaves orange and just fall away here. "Mom. Mom look, if you squint, that tree looks like it's covered with butterflies."
Katherine May:
Oh, lovely.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Just took my breath away. And I just thought, oh my gosh, here we were just running around doing errands. I was short tempered with him. And still and oh I haven't seen him read a book in forever. And he reminded me to take just a moment. It didn't take super long. But just take a moment and notice what's out there right in front of us.
Katherine May:
And it only takes a tiny pause. It's lovely.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yes. Just a tiny pause. Anyway, so it just shows that kids are listening. They're observing, they're watching.
Katherine May:
They are.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
It just is a good reminder that when I'm feeling frazzled and stressed, to just reset.
Katherine May:
No, absolutely. I had a lovely moment with my son last night who a bit like your son, I think is not the keenest reader in the world. He'd rather be on his iPad and again, I feel like a bit of a failure but he came in last night and said, "Mom, have you heard of a poet called William Blake?" And I was like, "Oh my God, yes. I'm going to tell you everything."
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh my I'm goodness.
Katherine May:
Empty my whole William Blake knowledge at you and dig out loads of books. And he went with it. I thought after a few beats, I thought, oh God, I'm just going to overwhelm him and he is going to.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Going to ruin it.
Katherine May:
But apparently I managed to pull it off just this once and he went off to school today with Songs of Innocence and Experiences, his reading book. And I was just so proud.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh my goodness. That is a parenting win right there.
Katherine May:
I know. This is the high point. It's only downhill from here. But I was so thrilled. It's all these little thing.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
How lovely.
Katherine May:
Well, you hope that you pass something onto them. And it seems to me that so much of what actually gets passed on is on a diagonal almost. The stuff you mean to pass on, they don't care about because they're sort of averse your interest somehow in a really insulting way. But every now and then you realize there's a bit of you in them anyway. And he was fascinated by William Blake because he felt like he had found him and I was thrilled to let him find William Blake. That's awesome as far as I can say.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
That's so great. Oh my goodness. It reminds me too of just, oh, if I'm remembering this right, correct me if I'm wrong. There was a passage in Wintering for November Slumber. Just the importance of just not getting right to your phone and when you wake up and how important sleep and rest is. I feel like when I don't have sleep and rest, I'm also not noticing things. I'm too frazzled to notice. I just want to get the next thing on my to do list done.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And I really just connected so much with, not just because it's November now but I remember underlinings so many things in your book about, I think our body needs that rest and reset a little bit, especially during this time of the year, when there's everything is telling you to be busy and to buy things. And what about the people who don't have time, who are just trying to make ends meet and now they have to find time to have money to celebrate the holidays, which should be. I think there's this, I don't know. it's a nice time to reset now, right in the middle of all the advertisements of buy this thing and your holidays will be bright or buy this one thing. And anyway, I just wanted to say how much I appreciated that.
Katherine May:
Oh, and it's such a lie. Oh thank you. And do you know what? I've been thinking about it again this year because I'm very resistant to the kind of big Christmas buildup. I really do think it's actually quite toxic for the reasons you've mentioned and more. It's toxic because it's so financially hard for so many people to keep pace with it. It's toxic because it's exhausting. It's toxic it because it's busy work rather than beautiful living. There's all sorts of stuff.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yes. Beautiful living. Oh my gosh. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And that's what we should be doing in the holidays is living beautifully, whatever way we can do that. And most of the time it doesn't require much money.
Katherine May:
No. And so what really surprised me this year was my son saying to me, because I always knew he loved Halloween and that's fine. He said, "You do know that Halloween matters more to me than Christmas." And I was like, "What?"
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh my goodness.
Katherine May:
I was really taken aback by it. And he sort of said, "I just love it. I love all the stuff that comes with it." And I thought about it and I thought, so all that stuff that I put myself under pressure to provide at Christmas, thinking he needs a big pile of presents and thinking that I have to get all the right food in and we have to have all these moments over Christmas. And actually he's asking for something that's much simpler because Halloween's really simple here. He's asking for having fun and dressing up and messing about a bit for one afternoon and then it's over. And it really took me back. It really, it was kind of a lesson for me I think about my assumptions about what he's demanding as opposed to what I'm actually forcing onto him, which he finds very stressful, I think at Christmas.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And I think, oh my gosh, everything that you're saying resonates so much with me and I think kids are good litmus tests of I think they can sense when mom's stressed. I'm a little stressed, I can't relax and then they act out or whatever, that kind of thing. I think they absolutely can detect that. And that's one thing, that's a goal that I'm trying to do this holiday is to just set aside time. No screens, just to actually find the magic. This sounds like an English professor but they have a ton of books and we have about an acre of yard. Between our yard and they have a zip line and they have trees in the back but we're also Mississippi's surrounded, they call it the green, kind of little it's a little postage stamp of green. This green velvet ditch, all their friends live near kind of forest woodlands.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And I really want, I'm going to say, "Look, your gift is to," they're going to have some gifts of course, "but your gift is going to be time." I want them to look at time is such a gift. And just to mean, I won't be nagging you. I'm going to send you out for about two hours. I'm going to be nearby but in case, but just two hours. Find something to do with your mates and just run around and get dirty.
Katherine May:
Have a nice time.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Skin up your knees. When I go teach poetry to elementary school kids, I'm struck at how many of them, and this is during spring months and it stays warm here till October. How many of them don't have skinned knees. They're wearing short and they don't have skinned knees. Meaning, I don't know about you, but the kids and I when we were growing up, we are just falling out of trees or falling off our bikes or that was a regular occurrence.
Katherine May:
We were walking open wounds, honestly.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yes. I know. It would be, oh, what happened there? Oh, that scab just busted open. It was just really terrible and I'm a very, very, what I would call a girly girl. I'd be a very girly but I had skinned knees from falling off playground equipment or whatever. I just really want them to play because my eldest is 14 and thankfully he's just on that cusp of still wanting to play.
Katherine May:
Oh that's lovely.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I just want him to still feel like wanting to play through his teen years as much as possible.
Katherine May:
I want them to want to play forever. I want them to never feel like they have to give up on play.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Exactly, exactly. Because you and I know grownups, people our age who have stopped playing and it shows in their speech, it shows in their habits, it shows in how they live their life.
Katherine May:
Yeah. I think that's the hallmark of writers and creative people that we just don't stop playing. But I also think that the weird thing is that often our play isn't seen as play when we're children but we have our own kind of particular play that's quite intense and quite involved and we never let go of it. If we are lucky, we never ever let go of it and we keep playing.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And the beauty is too, I do want to put a shout out for people who aren't parents who are listening to this, because I do remember so much when I was single and didn't have a kid and people would say things like, "Oh well, once I had a kid, I felt love for the planet."
Katherine May:
I think I felt the opposite.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh really? If you don't have a kid, you can't be environmentally a conscious?
Katherine May:
Oh I hate all of that.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I do want to say that all of this though, is something that we're, I don't know quite how it is there in the UK right now, but here in the States, we're still very much in a pandemic. A lot of people forget that we are but my youngest caught COVID last month. And we were so careful. We had not gone anywhere but that's just how contagious it is. And as a result, he's not able to get vaccinated now for a few months because he has to wait. There's so many of us, so many of my students, so many of my university students that are just kind of, they're not with their normal group of friends and loved ones and they're still feeling so alone.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
It's hard. How do you find joy? How do you find wonder when you're alone in you're flat or at home or you're not traveling, you haven't seen your friends? And I think that parking lot reminder of seeing a tree that looks like butterflies, that's something that can be done by us through our own windows, wherever we live. And you don't have to be a writer, you don't have to be an artist, but if you have a blank notebook and a pencil, you can sketch the clouds that day. You can look up, what is that weird leaf that I found? What is that? I think there's such a joy and magic in discovering names of things.
Katherine May:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then kind of connecting those names to other things and you can go on whole journeys.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Absolutely. And I think now in this time of isolation, once we know the names of things, you start feeling less alone. I can't explain it but you just start, instead of just, oh, yellow flower at the edge of that building, you realise, oh, that's Cecropia or things like that. You just actually feel a little bit less alone. The world feels less overwhelming when you can put names to things and that's something you can do with books or looking at your window and an internet connection. What is the name of that tree that I saw, that I pass by everyday?
Katherine May:
And then the next time you see it, it activates that little part of your brain again. And you build up this texture around you that is much more than flowers, leaves, plants, birds. It's specific and it's got infinite detail. Before I let you go, Aimee, I just want to return to a lovely, joyous bit of your book towards the end when you talk about your wedding. And I loved the vision. It took me right back to peacocks again, everybody in beautiful saris and bright colors and it sounded beautiful but then this image of you all dancing the Macarena together. I think what that really says is we shouldn't be precious about our joy.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Yeah. And I think I really didn't want to hit anyone over the head but I love that you made that connection, that that girl who was so ashamed of peacocks, grew up to be somebody who had at her wedding, the groomsmen were wearing barong tagalogs, which is the formal wear for men in the Philippines. And my bridesmaids were saris and only my sister was Asian. They're all White girls in saris and my Midwestern family and my in-laws all. Oops, excuse my dog.
Katherine May:
That's all right.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh my goodness. Haiku. Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, Katherine.
Katherine May:
Don't worry. It's fine.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
How embarrassing. That's my dog.
Katherine May:
Oh no, don't be embarrassed.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
That's my dog, Haiku is his name.
Katherine May:
Haiku.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
He is a little chihuahua and he has a Napoleon complex like all chihuahuas and darn mailman dropped off a package so he's trying to defend me and it's so embarrassing.
Katherine May:
Oh it's adorable.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Anyway.
Katherine May:
I love when real life intrudes on these things. I don't think we should all be pretending we're in a studio. I really like it that dogs bark and children come in and all that kind of thing.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
That's real life. Anyway, I just was saying that that girl and my Midwestern in-laws they loved it. I just loved that my very Midwestern in-laws were dancing with my Indian uncles.
Katherine May:
Ah, great.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
And it was the Macarena of all things. And that's the one video from MTV that I remember ever seeing an Asian-American in. I couldn't have planned it. It was not at all what I expected my vision. I don't know what I expected from my vision of my wedding but it was not that sanitised, clean, just very small, just bits of joy. It was exuberant and it was the song that I didn't want to hear at all. And everybody had the best time, even though we were still, we were using CDs for most of the night.
Katherine May:
Wow.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Playing CDs, I'm dating myself here now.
Katherine May:
I bet if your children have been there, they'd have been like.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I know. Exactly.
Katherine May:
I know it's really funny. We are really old. We just have to accept that we are old now. It's fine. I'm just really down with it. Well, I love this idea that the Macarena has a unifying power that cuts across cultures and time. It made me grin from ear to ear.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
I'm so glad.
Katherine May:
Aimee, thank you so much. It's been amazing to talk to you.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Thank you.
Katherine May:
And I will make sure that I signpost my listeners to your marvellous book and to all your places on social media because I'm sure they'll want to jump in and follow you.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
Oh, thank you so much.
Katherine May:
But it's been a real pleasure to talk.
Aimee Nezhukumatathil:
So lovely. I just adored talking to you Katherine, and thank you for making time from your busy week as well.
Katherine May:
Ah, thank you.
Katherine May:
The sun's gone now. I watched it become a semicircle and then the merest sliver and then it dipped finally below the horizon altogether. It always seems to speed up at that endpoint like it is in a hurry to go to bed. That's how I always feel too, the sun. Full sympathies. There's an old biplane flying overhead now and the seabed that's left behind by the low tide is a rainbow of color now. All the colors of the sky, it looks like someone spilled petrol over it. Although thankfully today I don't think they have. It's such a moment this. This point after sunset but before it's dark, it's like something suspended. Like we're in a time that shouldn't exist. There shouldn't be light in the sky, there is no sun. But there it is this lovely twilight and all the seagulls have risen into the air and I can hear a curlew by the tide line, that lovely fluting sound.
Katherine May:
And my feet are very muddy. I'll be cleaning my boots tomorrow morning. I just want to share this moment of peace with you really. I feel like Aimee would really like this. She would like the curlews most of all because they are so special. So hard not to notice. I want to thank her so much for our conversation. I love it when really people talk from the heart. There's so much in our world that's rehearsed and carefully controlled and choreographed and I think we writers have got a responsibility to resist that, to go out and be wholehearted, to tell the truth. We've always been truth tellers. We still carry that job. Such a great thing about running a podcast like mine and getting to the heart of things.
Katherine May:
Thank you for listening. Thanks to my Patreons who helped to make this possible. This week we had a Cheryl Strayed's film, Wild, watch along, which I really enjoyed. Was so nice to have some company and the company gave me the excuse to watch it. It was a real pleasure. If you enjoyed today's episode and you've got the price of a cup of coffee in your pocket spare each month, please do join us. It really helps to keep this going.
Katherine May:
Thank you to my producer Buddy Peace who also composes the theme tune. It's not a theme tune. I keep saying that, it's such a terrible way to describe it. The lovely introductory music. And to Meghan Hutchins who looks after all the practicalities and I cannot tell you how she keeps us on track. It's awesome. And thank you to Aimee for a lovely chat and to all of you for coming along for the ride. Tractors are coming towards me now, can you hear them getting louder? They're going home, I think. I'm going to take some photos of this gorgeous moment where the light is just receding and I'll see you next time. Bye.
Show Notes
Welcome to the Wintering Sessions with Katherine May.
This week Katherine chats to Aimee Nezhukumatathil, author of ‘World Of Wonders’ and more. An uplifting, soulful and inspiring chat with Aimee and Katherine, beginning with a foundation of wonder and never dropping the ball once. Moving from prose to poetry and immediately feeling boundaries being lifted, Aimee has put out some truly valuable work into the world and this is a perfect opportunity to get to the heart of it all. As always, it branches out into some rich areas including the juxtaposition of memoir and nature, enforced patriotism as a child, the gradual introduction of cultural reference while growing up, seeing the restrictive attitudes of the 80’s dissolving through generations, examples of harnessing the outdoors and nature from her parents and her geography being shaped by their professions, making your own entertainment, moments of wonder and how children can help trigger them in adults through example, the luxury of time in enjoying the outdoors and so much more to enrich your day.
We talk about:
Moving from prose to poetry and immediately feeling boundaries being lifted
The juxtaposition of memoir and nature
Enforced patriotism as a child through classroom drawing
The gradual introduction of cultural reference while growing up
Seeing the restrictive attitudes of the 80’s dissolving through generations
Examples of harnessing the outdoors and nature from her parents
Her geography being shaped by her parents professions
Making your own entertainment
Moments of wonder and how children can help trigger them in adults through example
The luxury of time in enjoying the outdoors
Links from this episode:
Aimee’s website
Aimee’s book World Of Wonders
Aimee’s Twitter
Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!
To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack
For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School
Wintering is out now in the UK, and the US.
