Zeba Talkhani on surviving online abuse
Photo credit: Chris Boland
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Zeba Talkhani on surviving online abuse
———
Growing up as an Indian Muslim in socially-repressive Saudi Arabia, Zeba Talkhani learned her feminism young, unable to stop questioning the restrictions on her thoughts and personal freedoms. But after writing a memoir of her experiences, she encountered a backlash that she could never have expected. Here, she talks about how she came to terms with the abuse she received after publication, and how it brought her closer to her mother.
Listen to the episode
-
Please note the transcript is automatically generated and may not be completely accurate.
Katherine May 00:07
Hello, I'm Katherine May and welcome to The Wintering Sessions, the podcast that sets out to learn from the times when life is frozen. This week I'm talking to Zeba Talkhani, the writer whose memoir My Past is a Foreign Country takes us through the journey to become a Muslim feminist. Growing up as an Indian Muslim in socially repressive Saudi Arabia Zeba learned her feminism young, unable to stop questioning the restrictions on her thoughts and personal freedoms. But after writing a memoir of her experiences, she encountered a backlash that she could never have expected. Here, she talks about how she came to terms with the abuse she received after publication, and how it brought her closer to her mother.
Katherine May 00:57
So Zeba thank you so much for talking to me today. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. I have been reading My Past is a Foreign Country, your brilliant memoir about growing up in? I mean, I think it's fair to say the kind of patriarchal environment of Muslim life in festival, India and then Saudi Arabia. Can you just outline a little bit about the book for me, please?
Zeba Talkhani 01:21
Yes, of course. I just also wanted to say that Wintering Sessions is a podcast that really helped me through the first lockdown. And it's such an honor to be here...
Katherine May 01:31
Thank you.
Zeba Talkhani 01:32
...a lot of my summer walks and autumn walks were punctuated by the soundtrack. So thank you. Very, very excited to be here
Katherine May 01:42
Ah thank thats lovely. Great.
Zeba Talkhani 01:47
Thank you for that introduction. Yes. So my past is a foreign country is my first book. It's a memoir. And I was very interested in exploring patriarchal structures in different parts of the world. And I've been so privileged and lucky to live in India, I'm Indian, and to grew up in Saudi Arabia, and to be also studying in Germany and the UK. And I felt, in the beginning of my years, I felt like, oh, the patriarchy is a problem in the Middle East and Asia, but not in the West. And I always idealized the West. When I got here, it was such a perspective changing experience. And I felt like I had something valuable to add to the discourse of feminism, mainstream feminism, and the patriarchy and the east and the west. And I'm so glad I embarked on this journey, because I think it helped me a lot to understand where I come from. And also, I think it's very easy. If something is a little bit better, it's very easy to think, Oh, this is how good it's going to get. So let's just praise this and stop working anymore. But I think that perspectives really helping for me to keep fighting for what I believe in, and to not get complacent.
Katherine May 03:11
Yeah, I think that's so interesting. And I mean, I, I feel like there's this really easy get out that we often have in the West, which is to look to other cultures and say, Oh, well, look, how, you know, look how forward we are in terms of feminism compared to those places. And actually, that a completely misunderstands the complexity of the relationships that we're, you know, blindly, kind of suggesting a bad where, you know, where the good guys or whatever, but also, it totally misses the way that patriarchy works in our own country, in our in our own cultures. And, you know, it gives a lot of people a big get out clause, I think,
Zeba Talkhani 03:50
Yes. When I was growing up, the western ideals were used, in the same way. Yeah, by people in Asia, and by people in the Middle East, at least, by saying that, oh, the West has lost its values. The divorce rates are really high. There's no concept of family and the children leave the house when they're teenagers. And I feel like it's so easy to create fear for the other, and fearful of taking the worst case scenarios and exceptional cases, and making a way to keep things within our own boundaries a little bit. Yeah, I see that that's being done, everywhere, wherever you go.
Katherine May 04:35
That's just a human thing. And I love that part in your book, when you know, became clear that the conversation in your family was, look how oppressed Western women are, look how you know, the lack of respect that they have and how their status isn't enshrined in their religion. Like that's something that I don't think we necessarily understand now.
Zeba Talkhani 04:53
And it's fascinating because anytime I felt the need..., actually anytime I felt brave enough to voice my opinion, back at home, and I don't mean this within my family, but within my community, it was very interesting how people had all of these facts ready to throw at me and being completely blind to the culture, they were quite happy to talk about how Islam respects women, which is true, obviously, and also that it gives women their right, and being completely blind to the fact that they themselves were not given rights to their wives and daughters, but felt quite comfortable to be like, Oh, yeah, but Islam does. And then making it pretty impossible. So I grew up in Saudi Arabia, and there was, and while I was there, they still had the male guardianship law
Katherine May 05:48
year,
Zeba Talkhani 05:48
where women couldn't travel without permission, they couldn't get medical help without permission of either their husband, brother or father, or their son. And yeah, it was just very, very strange. And it was very difficult to not think about these things, because it was just so in your face. Yeah.
Katherine May 06:08
You talk a lot about that mother daughter relationship within that society, and how in many ways it became kind of squashed out of shape by, you know, both of your kind of, I don't know, desires to please the other one, but also to kind of slightly rebel against each other. And the way that your mother had to try and get you to do the stuff that was going to make your life easier within that society, but which may be neither of you necessarily agreed with
Zeba Talkhani 06:39
Yes. And I feel like maybe we were not rebelling against each other. But it became that we were both trying to rebel against the society and the constraints that were around us. But it felt a lot of the time. So it was just me and my mother in the arena. And there was no one else to attack, because she was the one who had the job to make sure that I stayed within my limits. Usually, my father didn't get involved, the men didn't get involved, it was on the older women within the community, to make sure that they raise the girls with the right or what they consider to be the right manners and understanding of what they expected to do. And they grew up and when they become a woman. And I felt like my mum got that job, just by being the mother. Yeah. And I don't, it didn't feel like she enjoyed it so much. And I can, I don't, I have not talked to her about this. I don't maybe I'm projecting, but it felt like she herself was fighting the patriarchy in her own way, even though she would never call herself a feminist. And she doesn't agree with a lot of the things that I believe in. But she was fighting as well. She was fighting for her right to work to be independent. And she started a new career, got herself a master's degree after raising three children, and, you know, restarted her career. And I thought, Oh, that's something that I want to do. But I don't want things to be so difficult. So she was teaching me something. But she was also doing something else that felt different from what I was being taught to there was a discrepancy there. And I think that's what helped when she tried her best. And I feel so bad to talk about this sometimes, because I feel like she did everything that she was supposed to do. As a mother that was expected of her. And just by her being a very strong woman. I felt Oh, I don't have to do this. I have other options.
Katherine May 08:46
Yeah. So she paved the way. And marriage was a big part of that kind of obligation on your part, really, I think and on her part was to make sure you found a husband and a suitable one and that you look suitable for marriage.
Zeba Talkhani 09:00
Yes, that was definitely a big part of community wise as well. When I was a child, I want to say maybe 12 or 13. I was quite skinny. And my friend's grandmother just grabbed me by my hips and said, Oh, you're too thin, you will not be able to give birth, you need to put on some weight. And it was probably the most scariest thing i'd experienced until that. And I remember her bony fingers. Just that pain, that feeling of someone grabbing you like that and speaking to you this horrific things about giving birth talking to you about how painful it is, and you're just barely a teenager. So this was very much a part of the community and I feel like my mother was following what she was seeing around her as well. And there was a there's a lot of weight and I would say maybe even now of arranged marriages and I know that this We get a lot of flack for this in the Western world where I think we are not able to differentiate between forced marriage and arranged marriage yet, and I feel like arranged marriage was something very different. And all you do is introduce someone and it's totally up to you to say yes or no or to take the proposal forward. So my mum was very worried that I won't get appropriate or good proposals or matches, because I was experiencing hair loss, which also started around the time I was 12, or 13. And she, she just became very obsessed with me not having hair. And I think that also became a big part of how we struggled against each other, where she felt like I was not taking my hair loss seriously. And I just wanted to be a child. And I wanted to play and I wanted to read and I wanted to spend time with my friends. And at that age, I didn't want to worry about whether a man would find me worthy just because I didn't have hair and being reduced to my hair in that way.
Katherine May 11:15
Yeah, yeah.
Zeba Talkhani 11:16
Yeah. And I think that was that was quite difficult. And one of the main reasons of tension between me and my mother became became that and, and actually, I
Katherine May 11:27
I think you, you seem to have an incredibly realistic perspective on it from very young, you know, you just kind of felt like, this was what it was, and you just really wanted to be able to get on with it discreetly, I think?
Zeba Talkhani 11:40
Yes, I wanted approval, I think but not in the negative way. I just wanted to feel like I was enough. And I was not getting that from anywhere. I was not getting it at home, which feels quite painful to say, because I grew up in a very loving home. And it was just that my family was worried about my future. And they because it from their own experiences. They knew how difficult it was if you don't find a good husband. And I think I was thinking that there are other options in life than marriage, which is an idea that is so foreign to people in my community. And that time, at least on my eldest, and I feel sorry for them because I feel like I, I was able to tell myself, it's okay. I like my company. I was very young then, and I thought, OK, you know what, there are books, and there are people, people who can see me for me, and I can live my life and it wouldn't be the end of the world. And there were women in my family. Very few. In fact, from my father's side of the family, I don't know any single woman when I was growing up who were in the marriageable age bracket and had not been married. And there was just my mums aunt who lived with my mum's family when my mother was growing up. There was always this idea around her that Oh, she's so sad that she doesn't have her own family. But she seemed really happy. And I loved spending time with her. And she was very good with children. And she was very, to me, she was very independent. She had her own job.
Katherine May 13:24
Yeah, you could have admired that.
Zeba Talkhani 13:26
Yes, yes. And I thought, Oh, this is great. And how lovely to be able to leave that life as well. But everyone around her was that Oh, that's so sad. But she was fine.
Katherine May 13:38
Yeah, she's living her best life.
Zeba Talkhani 13:41
Exactly. And I think seeing that really helped, as well, in my mind.
Katherine May 13:46
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things that your book really brought home for me is how women are so extensively judged on their beauty at so many different points in their life, like right from childhood. And this idea of prettiness is held against us. And it's totally beyond our control. And yet, we can't escape that endless judgment, as if that's the only thing that matters about us.
Zeba Talkhani 14:14
Yes. And I felt that it was the first and only thing that people cared about. And I've written this in the book as well, as a student, again, I think I'm 14 or 15. In the school hallway, I was walking with my friend to my next class, and I got stopped. Well, we got stopped by a teacher. And she just kept admiring how beautiful my friend was. And she completely ignored me, not even a Hi or not even a response to me greeting her. And later on, I learned that she is looking for a wife for her son. And I thought, oh my goodness, it's just so prevalent that I was completely invisible and that was a very, it was a very small moment in my life. But it was very interesting that I was completely invisible to her. And I think that became a metaphor for the society I was living in, in the community. And I didn't like how it felt I didn't like the invisibility. And I remember that I was still craving her attention. Because I liked her as a teacher and she was very..
Katherine May 15:21
And her approval.
Zeba Talkhani 15:22
Yes, yeah, definitely. And that didn't happen. And that helped me. And I'm so grateful for that moment that I was walking with my friend, my beautiful friend, in that moment when we got stopped by her because it really got me thinking, and I thought, you know what, I don't like this feeling. And I don't want to experience it. Again, I don't want to crave attention from people who are purposely withholding it from me. And I didn't want to give them that power.
Katherine May 15:51
Make loads of sense? And it must be awful being on the other side of that to being the person that's pretty and that's the only thing that people can see about you. I think it creates kind of desperation in both directions somehow.
Zeba Talkhani 16:03
Yes, definitely. And a lot of my friends, I felt friends that you would consider conventionally beautiful, according to the very strict rules set by society that didn't have as many options as I did, I had a chance to travel and to study. And I think a lot of that was happening for me because of my hair loss. And because my parents were worried that I wouldn't get a good match. So there was in the time that I was supposed to get married, it wasn't happening. And they felt OK, if she's doing other things, and it will look like we are not waiting for her to get married. So there was a lot of that. And my friends didn't have that, because they were getting proposals that they felt couldn't be rejected. And there was a lot of emotional blackmailing, I would say, from their parents as well. And also being scolded where I remember once one of my friends got this proposal, which she was not happy with. And her mother just told her, Oh, you think you're too pretty. And you think a prince is going to come for you? So I feel like you couldn't even they couldn't even hold on to that beauty because it was weaponized against them very quickly. Within seconds.
Katherine May 17:21
Yeah, even that wasn't enough. So we did. I mean, the opportunities you had were extraordinary, really. So first of all, studying alone in India, and then moving to Germany to study. And then eventually to the UK. And I, you know, I loved your account of this sudden influx of learning that you undertook, once you had your independence, just reading every book that you could get hold of. I mean, it must have been a wonderful time.
Zeba Talkhani 17:49
it was the best. In Saudi Arabia, there were no public libraries when I was there, when I was a student, and our school library did not have the books that I wanted to read. And even the books that were there, we were not allowed to read, I studied, at first in an Indian School with a huge number of students and one library for an entire block of girls. And I feel like they were just not enough books to go around. So we, we had this library period that we would just sit and wait for our class monitor to get some comics. And we never really got to indulge in great literary work, through school. And there was no education around literature, it was just not considered important. And I still remember the first time I read the Secret Garden I was a teenager, and I remember thinking, Oh, my goodness, this is a whole different life. We were on holiday, we had gone to a hill station in Saudi Arabia, I think, seven hours away by road. So it was a road trip with my family, with my parents and my siblings. And I don't remember anything from that holiday except the book. I think that changed my life. And I craved that. I always craved stories, but it was very difficult. So when I moved to India, again, something that happened because my parents were quite keen for me to get educated. And a lot of my friends, parents were not. And they had to stay back and go to a distance learning University, or study things that they didn't want to study because they, their parents didn't want them to be away from home or to live away from home. But because my parents were quite keen for me to get educated, which was again, a privilege of mine, that I was allowed to live on my own in a hostel and study in India, even though I'm Indian, and I was very close to geographically very close to where my grandparents lived. So it wasn't a total independence, but it was just the right amount. , it's just what I needed. And I think for me, That time of my life will always be, I got my library card. And I just remember the joy of owning a library card for the first time in my life at the age of 17/18. And that changed the way I looked at life, because going to India already was like this big thing that this is where the world stops, and I have to make the best of what I have here. And then books really helped open that up for me.
Katherine May 20:29
Yeah. And I mean, you know, we shouldn't skirt around the fact that you experienced a lot of Islamophobia in Germany and the UK, And that, that that stuff couldn't have been easy. I mean, it must have been incredibly hard to carry that on behalf of a few terrorists, Nothing to do with you.
Zeba Talkhani 20:47
Totally. Considering also, that I didn't come from any other Gulf or Middle East country, but Saudi Arabia, which upheld the Islamic values with great pride, and where Islam couldn't be questioned. And I think it's by law, you can't question the religion, I believe, I don't know this, for sure. But that's definitely how it felt. So I was so safe in the knowledge of Islam, that I had never experienced anyone questioning it, or questioning things about it that could lead or a faction of the religion, either, or the extremist side of it in such a way. So that was shocking in itself. And it started very lightly in India, I think things were a lot better than, than they are now. Things have been quite difficult the last few years, specifically for Indian Muslims and for Muslims in the country. And I feel like I started becoming aware of it. And it helped me, it was not a good experience. But I'm so grateful for it, because it really helped push me to learn more about the religion and to allow more rational and outside voices into my space. Because before that, I was just like, Oh, it was blind faith, I can say, I was told to believe so I believed. And I think this kind of questioning helped me really embrace Islam and my identity as a Muslim woman. So I'm very grateful for it really,
Katherine May 22:24
A kind of training ground almost.
Zeba Talkhani 22:26
Yes.
Katherine May 22:27
Yeah. And I suppose it got to the point where you found it very hard to imagine going back into those more kind of restrictive, you know, societies that you grew up in.
Zeba Talkhani 22:40
Yeah, I used to have these nightmares. When I was a teenager and living in Saudi Arabia about in which I was trying to run away, again, and I had quite a loving family, there was no reason for me to want to run away. But the nightmares were me trying to run away, and then just getting caught by the government and the police. And there was no way out for me. So I think I was very aware of the lack of agency. And I didn't quite like the idea, I understood that I was a child, I was a minor. And my parents had that right over me. And that made sense to me. But I didn't understand why they would have that right over me till I got married, while I became an adult. And I just wanted to experience that freedom of making choices that a lot of the heroines in my books were being able to do. So I feel like even while I was in Saudi Arabia, I knew that I didn't want to be there. And I think going to India just really made that possible. I remember, I think it was just a year after I'd left home, and my dad just said, in passing, we were in the car, and he just said, Oh, you know, like after you study, you can come back home. And I just said it out loud. And I can't believe I said it now. But also then I just said, Oh, I'm never coming back home.
Katherine May 24:04
Just blurted.
Zeba Talkhani 24:05
Yes. I thought, Oh, you're crazy to think I'm coming back home. I'm never coming back home. And I remember the hurt on his face. where he had created this very safe environment, for me and for my siblings. And I was kind of kicking that away and being like, this is not good enough for me.
Katherine May 24:26
Yeah. And that happens. I think, in so many families, you know, when someone stretches their wings out and flies into a different life. And it's so hard for families to accept that the life that they made isn't good enough isn't the one that that children want?
Zeba Talkhani 24:44
Yeah.
Katherine May 24:48
We'll be back with more from zebra in a moment. But first I want to tell you about my online course Wintering For Writers, which is back online after a successful first run last summer. Wintering For Writers is designed to be a beautiful reflective process for writers who are currently struggling, as so many are in this pandemic year. If you're feeling blocked or losing hope it's packed with videos and thought provoking texts to help you to rethink your practice. And there's an exclusive workbook to support your reflection. Best of all, you can work at your own pace, and in complete privacy as you write yourself back into your creative flow. To find out more, go to katherinemay.com and click on courses, or follow the link in the show notes. And now back to Zeba Talkhani,. So where do you consider or where do you feel most at home now?
Zeba Talkhani 25:44
I moved to London two years ago, with my husband, and I feel when I moved to London, I felt like I finally found my city, my home.
Katherine May 25:55
Wonderful. What a great place to find your home in.
Zeba Talkhani 25:57
Yes, I feel so lucky. so privileged. My book came out last year and my parents came here for the book launch. And I remember one afternoon. So they were taking, they usually take afternoon naps. If it's very hot. We had a heatwave at the time in June last year, no the year before, sorry, in 2019. And they were both lying in bed. And I was lying in between them. And they're falling asleep. And I was just very quiet. And I was going to leave the room. And suddenly I said Oh, can you believe that I live in London. I just I can't get over it. And I'm so grateful. And I can't believe this is my life. And just walking around. I think I'm making the most of being here. And I remember my husband, he grew up in Cheltenham. He's a totonium. And he loves the Southwest. I think that's where you would like to be. And when we first moved to London, he said, like, Oh, you know, we'll work here for a few years. And then we'll go back. And I just told him, I'm not going back {Laughs} we can meet at weekends if you want.
Katherine May 27:13
The train?
Zeba Talkhani 27:14
Yeah, exactly. I can't I can't believe it. I never thought I would find the perfect place. In Germany, I studied in Bremen, which I really loved. I think if I could speak German, as fluently as I speak English, then I think that would have been my happy place. I would have never left. If language wasn't such a problem.
Katherine May 27:34
Yeah, it sounds amazing. You're kind of student life there. So when the book came out, though, there was some fallout for you personally wasn't there?
Zeba Talkhani 27:45
Yes, with some of my family members. And I think it became. So I'm going to go on to describe some of my feelings about it. And I think they're going to sound over exaggerated or an overreaction to what I actually experienced. But I just wanted to note that that's how strongly I felt it. And in retrospect, I see, it wasn't that big a deal. And there were many other better ways of dealing with it, and fixing it. But I seemed incapable of that. Because I was just not prepared for that kind of criticism from my close family. I feel like I had my guard up against strangers and extended family and anyone who has shown any kind of animosity. With me, I feel like for that I was prepared. But the fact that this came from really close family members that I looked up to and that I really loved. And I felt like they understood me all of this time, up until the book came out. I felt like we were on the same page. So that I think that was a big misunderstanding, as well. So it was a huge shock to me,
Katherine May 28:55
Right? Yeah, I can imagine.
Zeba Talkhani 28:57
Yeah, yeah. And I remember, I had a time I was interviewed by the times. And I went to the news building, I want to say three or four days after, I became aware of how strongly my family felt against everything that was happening. And I remember after the interview, but I was very scared of saying something or saying anything further that would make my family angry or upset with me. And I had this really strong feeling of not wanting to be alive anymore. Such a strong reaction for something someone said, but that's how much I cared and how important my family was for my self worth, but also my identity, I think, and I saw all of these family members as these strings on a rope, and I was that rope and all of these people made me and shaped me and suddenly It felt like my entire being was unraveling, you know, the strings were coming apart and there was no rope to talk about, there was nothing. And I just felt like I didn't exist anymore. And my parents were obviously very close with the rest of the family. And of course, they also don't agree with a lot of the ways in which I process the way I talk about the patriarchy in my feminism. And I felt very bad for putting them through it, because I've always been very careful. they've always done the right thing, they've always been very kind to the family never confrontational, and keeping the peace. Yeah. And I've, I think I also felt a lot of shame, and regret, that I blew all of their life's work away like that, without thinking about it. The book itself talks a lot about my parents, but not the family in general. And I felt like I was very careful, I think, as a memoirist, and I bet you can relate to this, you think so hard about everything that you're choosing to put in your book?
Katherine May 31:12
Oh, completely. I mean, you really, and you agonize over it. And you have to kind of own the sense of power almost that being a memoirist gives you, you know, you can, with a few cruel strokes, really harm someone actually. And sometimes that temptation is strong, right?
Zeba Talkhani 31:30
Yeah. It's a very powerful feeling. You feel you almost feel like you're in control, you're gone. It's very difficult to resist it. Yes, you're right. And I felt like I did that. I did that many, many times. But I was very careful to keep the narrative. Very limited to just my parents. And me. I barely mentioned my siblings. And even more generally, I removed a lot. I removed a lot from the draft that I felt didn't add value to my narrative, and was unnecessarily mean. So I think I was coming from that perspective, but I was already feeling like, oh, I've written the most careful book possible. I was totally not. I think I was expecting even maybe praise for having managed it. Because it's just such hard work.
Katherine May 32:26
I mean, it's sort of open hearted work as well, you know, you're laid bare. Yeah absolutely.
Zeba Talkhani 32:31
Yeah, definitely. And I feel like I think that's where the shock came from.
Katherine May 32:37
So what was the nature of their criticism or complaint?
Zeba Talkhani 32:41
I think in the beginning, it was that I have been disrespectful, that I have shared things that I shouldn't share, or it was not my right to share, especially, I think, with regard to the patriarchy. So I think their biggest problem was that I wrote about the patriarchy or I acknowledge the patriarchy. And they kept telling me that I'm potentially lying, and the patriarchy didn't exist in my life, and that I lead a very privileged life. And I get that because we are financially quite privileged. So yes, there was there was a lot of that. And I, I felt like I acknowledge my privilege, and they were right. And I think what was also interesting is that they had worked really hard for that privilege. And maybe they felt like I was just not acknowledging that. And I was not appreciating that. And I can totally empathize with that feeling. I think same with my parents where they've worked too hard. And I'm just coming in a child in their eyes, and kind of ripping all of that apart. And even though I didn't directly talk about anyone, and I didn't mention any specific incidents, which I felt like I was doing this big thing. By keeping everything anonymous and sticking to my story. I think it really helped me understand how I think closely knit we are with our community and our family. And it's such a fine line between my narrative and the collective narrative. And before the book came out, I had worked for many years on empowering myself. And I was very focused on myself because I felt like Oh, if I don't take care of myself, no one else will and I need to have my own worries to stop things happening to me or for me, where other people are making decisions, which was very normal for a lot of my peers. So it wasn't an unfounded fear. And I think amidst all of that, I let go of my place within the collective. And I this became me, and I feel like maybe that was something that my family wasn't aware of, and it must have come out A shock, as well. Because you know, when I spend time with them, and I meet them, I'm very respectful and I want to be part of the community. And I follow all the rules. There's a lot of gender divide in all of these homes, and I follow them, I don't question them, I don't raise my voice. I just go with the flow. And I feel like the book was the first time they came across all of these ideas that I had, I didn't even speak up or disagree with anyone in the house. I just, I played my role as a child, I just let it be. So yeah, I think that that was a shock for them.
Katherine May 35:43
They had this sudden encounter with the person you'd become, and it was probably, you know, a very kind of big shock for them, I guess.
Zeba Talkhani 35:51
Yes, definitely. And also, even after I became this person, I would still visit them, and fall back into my old role. So I was having these split personality feelings where I was just like, oh, When I am myself, and I'm an empowered, independent woman. When I'm on my own, when I was studying and working in Cambridge, it felt I was someone else. And then I would go back home quite often. And I would just regress back to someone without agency.
Katherine May 36:26
And so I mean, did they contact you personally to tell you off? Or did they contact your parents? Or
Zeba Talkhani 36:32
There was a lot of everything?
Katherine May 36:35
Right, The whole shebang?
Zeba Talkhani 36:37
Yes. So there was personal communication. And then there was online public communication. And there was, I believe, also a letter to my publisher, and some things with my place of work. I can't remember now directly, maybe they were just tweets. So there was a lot So I was shocked And then I was being attacked from many different places. And I feel like the shock just stayed with me because I thought that if someone disagreed with me, we are the family would be able to deal with it, or just agree to disagree and move on. So I knew that they wouldn't like everything in my book. But I wasn't expecting that level of disagreement. And I feel like, you know, there are lots of things about my family and my community that I don't agree with. But I just live with it.
Katherine May 37:40
You've often kept quiet about Yeah,
Zeba Talkhani 37:42
So I think I was just expecting the same in return. And that feels silly in retrospect, when your ideas have never been questioned.
Katherine May 37:52
Yeah. It must have been incredibly painful. I, you know, that's a real, particularly a moment of triumph. You know, your first book has come out to considerable critical acclaim, your being interviewed by The Times, you know, you had every right to feel so proud of what youv'e done. And you're not being allowed to enjoy.
Zeba Talkhani 38:12
No, and all I felt was shame and regret. I remember, you know, you get these auto copies. 20 come in a big box. And I was so excited when I opened that box. And after I wanted to get rid of the books, I didn't want to look at the cover. I couldn't understand why I wrote it, or what made me want to do something like this. I was totally questioning everything that I'd worked on all of these years. And I think that was the most difficult, but I remember my husband, put the books away under the bed. Because I felt like I would just tear them or throw them or I just could not look at that cover. And I couldn't believe that I'd done something so painful and hurtful. But also, I think in the beginning, I tried to fight it, where I felt, oh, this is my right. I get to talk about my life and my story. And I tweeted how I felt about it. And I think my family got even more upset that I addressed the whole issue publicly. And that really scared me. And then I felt like I had no right.
Katherine May 39:24
And you do. And so how did you come to I hope the books are out from under the bed first of all.
Zeba Talkhani 39:34
Yes.
Katherine May 39:34
How did you gradually come to terms with that?
Zeba Talkhani 39:37
It took a long, long time. I think the most shocking thing was experiencing suicidal ideations because, that came at such a huge shock and I just got really scared I went back into therapy, which really helped and I because of that Feeling where I was just like nothing is worth living for anymore. Because I've done the worst crime. I think it opens something within me. So up until then I thought I was vulnerable. Or I opened up, you know, I wrote a memoir I shared about my feelings. And I do that online as well. But I opened up in a way that I didn't know was possible, where I was completely vulnerable, with the people around me on one of my family members birthdays, who I was very close to, and I was missing her we hadn't spoken in a while. And on her birthday, I was at an event. And while I was talking about my book, I started crying in front of a roomful of people. And they were really kind about it, you know, they just, we ended my bit there. And they clapped. They stood up, and they clapped. And they just made me feel really supported. And I felt like I was being held by them. And I feel like those kinds of moments helped. Because this was something so big, that I let myself go completely, which I had never done before. And I learned what happens when people step in, to help you protect you. Yeah, and to hold you up together. And I think that really helped at work, I just joined my new job a couple of weeks before the book came out. So I was already quite nervous and anxious about a new place. And when all of this started, I was very stressed. And I couldn't hold my tears had to keep going to the toilet to gather myself. And one of my colleagues noticed that and she came up to me, we hadn't really spoken much before. And we have become the closest of friends now. Because the first time we spoke was me crying, and trying to make me feel better. I think before this moment, if I the idea of me crying in front of a stranger crying in front of a roomful of people was just unimaginable. I would never ever let myself do that. That That's what I thought. So I think those were some of the things that helped and also time, I think time really, really helps. Because I went through a lot of feelings of anger, frustration, the unfairness of the situation the way I saw it, then. And I think with time I was able to empathize and understand how a lot of other people can feel about the book and how this all there was or and I hope there is a lot of love. They've seen me grow up that they were there when I was born. So there's some kind of ownership, I think, out of love, and affection. And to see that I don't subscribe to a lot of their ideologies. I think that's difficult I can I can empathize with that.
Katherine May 43:03
I think you're showing an extraordinary amount of empathy for people who attacked you and hurt you.
Zeba Talkhani 43:08
But thank you
Katherine May 43:10
Did did you receive in return? Please tell me you received that in return?
Zeba Talkhani 43:14
I don't think so. Yes, I think it's very difficult to talk about it. Because I used to always think of them as these are my elders. And if I make a mistake, they will take care of it. They will help me fix it. And I think I imagined that if there was something in particular that they were very upset with, they would let me know. And I could see what I could do in the paperback version of the book. That kind of stuff. But I feel like there was no room for communication. There will just a lot of I think, I would say abuse, but I'm using it very carefully. And with respect,
Katherine May 43:56
kind of heavy judgment that Definitely
Zeba Talkhani 43:59
Yeah, yeah. nd at that point, when I was so extremely vulnerable, with having a book out very worried about what people are going to say, and not really ready for this kind of messages and things from people. Or, that kind of thinking, I think, I don't know, I feel like maybe a lot was expected off me because I think the general idea was that I was the one who created the problem. If I hadn't written the book, none of this would have happened. So it's on me to fix things. And I feel like I tried and after a while just for my mental health, I had to step back a little bit. I just couldn't keep going like that where I believe I apologized to quite a few people, multiple times. I feel like at that time, some people were not ready to accept or to let it go or to think okay, what next And I felt I felt like I was completely out of the family that I didn't belong.
Katherine May 45:06
And that ostracism is a hugely painful thing, particularly if you're brought up in a very kind of communitarian society. You know, it's, it's the most painful thing that can happen to you if you feel strongly part of a community. So where does that leave you now? How do you feel about the book? And how do you feel about writing your next one,
Zeba Talkhani 45:32
I feel incredibly proud of my book.
Katherine May 45:35
So you should. It's wonderful.
Zeba Talkhani 45:39
Thank you that it's so kind. And I feel powerful. I feel Oh, my goodness, look at what I have achieved. But I also feel a lot of, I don't want to say pain, but maybe an ache for what I lost. And I don't know if it was worth it. But this is what I did. And this is what I needed to do. And I remember this really fiery urge in me to tell them my story, to the point where I felt like if I didn't tell my story, I couldn't live my life. It didn't feel right. And I feel like when all of this started, I forgot about that. I forgot how desperately I needed to write this book, and tell my story and take ownership of my narrative Finally, after all these years of not having agency, so I'm really glad I did it. And I'm glad that I didn't know how my family would react to the book until it came out. Because I feel like if I knew I'd have never gone ahead with it. And yeah, that's definitely I'm grateful for that. And I hope that I can feel like, I'm part of that family again. But it also helped me realize that I built my own family, I have a very supportive husband, my parents supported me throughout all of this and all of my friends who stepped in. And this was the only thing I could think about or talk about for months. And none of them made me feel like I was being unrealistic, or that I was being boring, which I'm sure I was, but I couldn't stop. So I, I felt really held up by them. So I think I feel very grateful that I have people that I can rely on so deeply. And it also helped that finally, I got medication, which I was very opposed to before and I felt like oh no, you have to be very strong. You don't. And this is how I used to feel towards myself like oh, no, you've been through worse. And you don't need any anti depressants, you'll be okay. You're strong. And
Katherine May 47:52
You don't have to be strong. It's fine
Zeba Talkhani 47:53
Yeah, exactly. And now, I feel so grateful that that moment helped me get the help I needed, it pushed me to get the help I needed. And if that hadn't happened, I think I would continue to keep suffering on my own for longer. And now I just feel Oh, there's so much support, and I can access it. And I'm so grateful and privileged and live in a country that takes these issues seriously. And I think yeah, there's a lot of gratitude.
Katherine May 47:57
That's an incredible lesson to learn. And it takes so many people so long to learn it if they ever do, which is that, you know, you can get help, and it's okay. And the world doesn't fall in when you admit to your suffering. in fact, people step forward and are lovely to you, quite often not everyone. But you know, you come to value those people who show you love in those times, I think,
Zeba Talkhani 48:46
Definitely. To answer the second part of your question.
Katherine May 48:49
Yes, I was just about to jump in on that.
Zeba Talkhani 48:52
Everything that had happened, I was not able to write and in fact, I had decided that I'm never going to write and that it's not worth it. And then when I kept trying, it wasn't happening, because I was very scared. every paragraph that I wrote, I would be that, oh, how would my family see this? What would they think about this? And what..? How would they misunderstand or misinterpret this? And it just became impossible to write. And it's been a year or so of not writing. And I finally started writing again and working on fiction, and I'm very excited to explore a lot of the same themes, but through fictional characters where I feel like I can go deeper into the truth and explore it and truly in a way that I want to, or need to, and it's so exciting, where I feel like writing is the way I've decided to spend my time on this planet. It's really nice to be able to do that. So I feel like I'm learning to find the joy In my writing, rather than worrying about what's going to happen if it gets published, because publishing, my writing was never part of that time that I spent writing, there was just so much joy and contentment with the act of writing. So I'm really glad to have come back to that where all these demons and fears of mine are not part of that safe space anymore.
Katherine May 50:25
I'm so glad that you found your way back to writing I'm so glad that it didn't put your forever. And I'm sure that actually, you know, you'll, you'll come out of this a more robust writer, you know, you've been through those pains of not knowing how to go on and you've come out the other side. And that's just amazing, I think.
Zeba Talkhani 50:45
Yes, thank you. And I, the most amazing thing that has come out of it, is that if I ever come across a negative review, it doesn't faze me at all.
Katherine May 50:56
Yeah whatever do your worst.
Zeba Talkhani 50:59
Exactly it's like I've been through this? You can't, you can't do that. I think that I'm really grateful for that. I think that's something that's going to help me because I have lots of other friends, who I find struggle with that quite a lot. And it throws them off completely for a week for a month.
Katherine May 51:14
Or you could teach us all a lot about dealing with negative reviews. That one person on like the bottom of the page on Amazon, who's like, "No, I didn't like this that much."
Zeba Talkhani 51:29
I'm very, very grateful for that. I feel like I'm saving a lot of time and heartache for the future.
Katherine May 51:36
Honestly, if you could, if you could package that and teach it as a skill we would call be signing up.
Katherine May 51:43
Oh Zeba, thank you so much. It's been amazing to talk to you. I've just loved hearing your story. And I think you tell it was such humanity and good grace. And you know, I really, I'm so glad that there's a happy ending to this to
Zeba Talkhani 51:56
Thank you so much. And I, I felt like I learned a lot from your book Wintering. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for sharing everything you have learned and made it possible for people after you to be able to experience and learn from these moments. Definitely. Thank you.
Katherine May 52:12
Maybe one day we'll all find it a lot easier if we keep sharing information.
Zeba Talkhani 52:16
I hope so too
Zeba Talkhani 52:16
Bye
Katherine May 52:17
Thank you
Katherine May 52:27
And that's all for us today. Thank you so much to see Zeba Talkhani for sharing the hidden aftermath of her brilliant memoir with us. My Past is a Foreign Country is available in all good bookstores, and you can follow Zeba on Instagram @ZebaTalk, or subscribe to her newsletter at zeba.substack.com I'll be back next week with another brilliant writer who is intimate with winter. Thanks for listening.
Show Notes
This week Katherine chats to Zeba Talkhani, author of 'My Past Is A Foreign Country'.
Growing up as an Indian Muslim in socially-repressive Saudi Arabia, Zeba Talkhani learned her feminism young, unable to stop questioning the restrictions on her thoughts and personal freedoms. But after writing a memoir of her experiences, she encountered a backlash that she could never have expected. Here, she talks about how she came to terms with the abuse she received after publication, and how it brought her closer to her mother.
Zeba and Katherine also touch upon and go in on topics including the patriarchy and how the West can use other countries as a metric for its power, the pressure in securing a husband and how it affected her very early life, how one encounter in a school hall has stayed with her, the acknowledgment of privilege, personal fallout after receiving preview copies of her book, and the beauty and joy of finding writing again.
Zeba Talkhani has written for the Saudi Gazette, The Manipal Journal, gal-dem, Wasafiri and the Nasty Women anthology. She works in publishing and is a passionate advocate for BAME voices in the publishing industry. She was born in Sirsi, South India, in 1991. She currently lives in London.
We talk about:
Growing up in socially conservative Saudia Arabia
Being a Muslim feminist
Finding freedom while studying in Germany
Dealing with a backlash after her memoir was published
Links from this episode:
Zeba’s Instagram
Zeba’s Newsletter
Zeba’s Twitter
To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack
For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School
Wintering is out now in the UK, and the US.
