Angela Barnes on the continual winter Persistent Depressive Disorder
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Angela Barnes on the continual winter Persistent Depressive Disorder
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Angela Barnes has zero tolerance for anyone reassuring her that she's pretty - it talks over her lived experience, and does nothing to change her self-perception. Here, she discusses living with Persistent Depressive Disorder, which has made her whole life feel like the drizzly English climate, but which has also made her more able than most to endure the hard-knocks life of a stand-up comedian.
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Please note the transcript is automatically generated and may not be completely accurate.
Katherine May
Hello, I'm Katherine May and welcome to The Wintering Sessions, the podcast that sets out to learn from the times when life is frozen. This week I'm talking to comedian, broadcaster and cold war enthusiast Angela Barnes. Angela has zero tolerance for anyone reassuring her that she is pretty. It talks over her lived experience and it does nothing to change her self perception. Here, she discusses the right to feel ugly, and living with persistent depressive disorder, which has made her whole life feel like the drizzly English climate. But it's also made her more able than most to endure the Hard Knocks of living as a stand up comedian.
Katherine May
So Angela, it's amazing to have you on the podcast. We've been working together for a while, haven't we? And so I had this ambition to get you on my podcast cuz I knew you'd be really cool. So thank you for agreeing. Really.
Angela Barnes
Thank you for having me. I'm sorry. It's taken a while to sort of pin us down. We had Christmas and all sorts of things in the way, didn't we? But we've got there. We're here.
Katherine May
Yeah. Life Life is getting in the way you think seeing as we're all at home all the time at the moment for everything would be easy to arrange. But it just isn't
Angela Barnes
It really isn't. For this project I've been working on, you know, with you. A lot of it involves recording interviews, and I thought what everyone is at home, it's going to be really easy. And it's been an absolute nightmare, just pinning people down during this because I think it's very easy to say I can't do it today, you know, actually at the moment, because lifes just hard. Isn't it as a minute?
Katherine May
Yeah, we're at a point of overwhelm, I think and I, I mean, I do a couple of events a week normally at the moment, like online evening events. And actually, there's more events come I mean, I know you're used to gigging so this is really normal for you. But for me, that's a really unusual number of events to be doing. And you have to kind of put a stopper on it because I can't be doing a thing every night, for example. You know, it's really, it's a really different way of managing your time, the host, everything's different. Everything's different and confusing.
Angela Barnes
It is I mean, I find it hard to say no to things at the best of times, you know, whereas it was always, if I was away gigging, it was easy to say no to doing something else. He said, Well, I can't do that, because I'm in Scotland, or I'm in wherever I am. Whereas when I'm always at home, I find it even harder to turn things down. Because you think, well, they know that I've not got anything else on. They know that I'm at home. And it's really, it's really difficult to say no to things. And I've had to because I've got I've been very lucky as a comedian to have been working consistently through this last year. And I know how lucky I am. So I'm very reticent to moan about it. But you know, there's a lot of people on Facebook go, Oh, I'm so bored. I was tired of that. I'd love to be bored for a bit. I really would just a couple of weeks of being bored.
Katherine May
It has the pandemic is 50/50, isn't it? Like, half of the people are bored senseless and the other half and completely up to their eyeballs in childcare, caring responsibilities and fitting work around that.
Katherine May
That's one thing where I felt very smug about my life choices is that I haven't had to worry about homeschooling. And I know Katherine, I feel terrible saying that to you. But I can't imagine the extra pressure. I can't moan because it's just me and my fella and my dog. And we're, you know, he's been able to work from home consistently, we're fine in it. So I moan about Actually, yeah, we are definitely the lucky ones
Angela Barnes
That helps right, being by the sea. Two things that I think have definitely helped to be near the sea. For me, it's I live in Brighton and having a dog, which has meant I have to go outside the house every day.
Katherine May
No. I mean, honestly, I think the same is true for us. We're, you know, we're very well adapted to this kind of life, to be honest. And also, you know, we live in a town where there's all the facilities that we might need, which I don't think is true of every town now, you know, there's a green grocer. And there's a, you know, chemists. Nothing has been very ...and a beach. I mean, having a beach has made a big difference.
Katherine May
Yes, I think that's really true. Because I'm quite new to the whole dog thing. And you can't not walk them. Can you you have to take them out
Angela Barnes
Oh, yeah. She won't know that. Yeah, absolutely.
Katherine May
So let's talk about what we're here to talk about, because this is The Wintering Sessions. So we always talk about a winter in our lives. Yes. And you've proposed to me a really interesting format of winter I think, which is living with PDD persistent depressive disorder, which means that your life feels like a kind of low grade, winter most of the time.
Katherine May
Yeah, that's how I describe it. So the persistent depressive disorder isn't quite as bleak as it sounds. It doesn't. It's just a sort of constant low level low mood and I take medication. I Since I was 18, and I'm what am I now 44. So I'm pretty well controlled by now in my, in my situation, but I describe it in terms of climate. So I think a lot of people's lives are sort of Californian climate in that most of the time. It's lovely weather, it's not necessarily perfect weather, you know, no one's life is perfect all the time. But it's fine, you know. And then out of the blue somewhere, there'll be a tornado that whips into their life. And this sort of wintering that is forced upon someone for a specific amount of time and then goes and the climate restores. Whereas I think I felt very British climate going on in my head, in that it's a sort of low level drizzle, a lot of the time. But it's also never that bad.. well I say it's never that bad. I've had me you know, 1987 storm, and I've had my there's been moments of big weather events. But generally, it's just sort of a bit drizzly is how I describe it. And that's not to say that I'm miserable, it's a different thing. It's just a sort of, it's always there, this condition is PDDs, it's just always in the background of everything. And I have what they call like atypical depression. So an atypical doesn't mean rare, it just means sort of opposite to other diagnoses. Whereas a lot of people, their depression manifested not being able to eat, or not being able to sleep and insomnia. Mine is very opposite to that, in that I, you know, comfort eat, and I want to sleep a lot. So this last year, I dread to think how much I've slept through it, because, like, is sleep. I asked if we could record this at 9:30 in the morning, and I would get out of bed. And I wouldn't waste the day.
Katherine May
Really, is that what you do now?
Angela Barnes
In the morning, because then I will get up. because that's the other thing that the pandemic has taken away, I have very little structure in my life, because I'm a stand up comedian. But whatever structure I had, has disappeared with the pandemic, you know, so any opportunity, I have to pop a bit of structure back in things like I have now on a Monday morning at 10 o'clock, every Monday morning, I have a 45 minute online zoom conversation with a German lady in German. "A" Because I just wanted to improve my German I really started to lose it. And "B" because it gets me going on a Monday morning. That's 10 o'clock on Monday morning, I have to be online. And that's Yeah,
Katherine May
Whereas I am so the opposite to that. I would I would so resent that. If that was a regular fixture in my diary, I would get angry with that after about two weeks be like, I've got no freedom. Somebody liberate me from this horrible oppression. I am ridiculous about structure can't bare, it makes me really angry
Angela Barnes
That's why we're freelancers, right? Because I, you know, my my other half is, he works in IT. And he works Monday to Friday 9:00 to 5:30. And sometimes I'm jealous of that when at the weekend, he's able to not think about work at all, and have a weekend, which as freelancers that just doesn't happen for us. You know, I try and not do it, you know, relax on a Saturday and all I'm hearing the voice in my head going well, you could be doing X Y Z.
Katherine May
Yeah, it's endless. If you're freelance, I can never stop really,
Katherine May
well, the workday doesn't end. And there's always that fear that there might not be more work. You know. So, again, it's that saying no to things, you know, I'm writing this book at the moment. And I have to I've had to go what I have to start turning other things down, because you're not creating the time you know, but you always worry if you say no to something they'll never asked you again. Which is crazy, because they do.
Katherine May
Yeah. And actually, I mean, you have to be careful of that, because like, when you become a writer, a professional writer, you kind of get obsessed with turning stuff down to make make time to write and you can end up everything down out of habit. and seeing everything as this horrible imposition on your practice. Like how dare they invite me to this, don't they I've got things to say
Katherine May
The world needs to hear my thoughts. Yeah, so it's Yeah, it's this sort of this type of enforced being at home from I've had to build in a structure otherwise I'd sleep through it. Because that's my way of coping with stress is if I'm, if I'm stressed if I'm anxious, I you know, part of PDD certainly of my PDD is high levels of anxiety. And my way of coping with anxiety is to shut down and despite knowing rationally in my rational brain to go if you're feeling overwhelmed, the best thing you can do is something you know If you're feeling like you've got too much to do, do something because then I remember a therapist saying to me once, the the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time, which is just, you know, when you feel like you've got to eat this entire elephant, how am I going to do it? It's like, well, one bite at a time, which is a lovely bit of advice. But in practicality, that's just not how my brain works. My brain goes, I've got too much to do. I'm overwhelmed. So what I'm actually going to do is get under this duvet and hide. And hopefully, it'll all just just go away. And of course, that only makes things worse.
Katherine May
Yeah, but on the other hand, it's really tough. But it's like the it's like the lovely Anne Lamott line, isn't it? You know, if you need to write something, you do it bird by bird. Little bit by little bit. Being autistic, right you know, executive dysfunction can be a problem for me, like sometimes I can't make my brain do some do anything. And particularly like, say, if I've got a meeting booked for two o'clock, my whole being is focused on that two o'clock meeting, and I won't be able to do anything in the morning quite often. it's just, you know, it's so frustrating. My brain is so fucking stubborn sometimes.
Katherine May
I felt I wanted to cry when you said that? Because I absolutely. And I find it's such a failing in myself that if I have something, like, for example, I've got a gig tonight, an online gig and it's a charity gig. I've just got to do 10 minutes of stand up. I don't have to prepare for it as it's, it's my bread and butter. It's what I do. It's online. You know, I don't I only even have to get dressed from the waist up. You know, it's really not. But because that's there. It sort of blocks the rest of my day somehow. It's there looming. And that's what I'm thinking about. Yeah, I think I struggle with. I'm a sort of list writer, I'm a you know, in my day, I have a list and that's fine. But when there's events on that list, if there's more than two a day, that's when I start to struggle, and get overwhelmed, not because I can't cope with it, but because I think I can't cope with it. And I start to panic that I can't cope with it. And I but it sounds so ridiculous to say, you know, I've got this gig at eight o'clock tonight. So I'm struggling to write this thing. One o'clock in the afternoon.
Katherine May
I can't I can't even explain it. Yeah, no, it's weird. And if I have to travel for something that's even worse, like until I've done the travel, I'm obsessed with it. I'm worrying about the travel. Like not that anything's gonna happen, but just that it's this thing I've got to do. And I know that if my attention lapses, I can I'll miss a train or, you know, miss a time slot. And so, you know, I'm horrible for arriving at stuff three hours early, because then I know I'm there and I, you know, I can't get over it. And so it's ridiculous. Like, it's very hard to explain, but it's a it's a mindset.
Katherine May
The moment I knew that Matt was the right man, for me, was the first time we went on holiday together. And he was absolutely on board with us being at the airport three hours early. Because I cannot I don't understand these people who will guys loads of time will get to the airport with half an hour spare whizz through. I can, I am there so early that I have time for a three course meal in, you know, Jamie's Italian or whatever it they've got there. Because I cannot bear the thought of rushing for a flight.
Katherine May
And that's if I haven't booked a nearby hotel overnight.
Katherine May
Absolutely. Oh, yeah. It's a morning flight. I'll definitely, definitely,
Katherine May
yeah, I mean, even if it's quite a late morning flight i'm tempted.
Katherine May
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I travel a lot for my job, mostly, you know, I drive 30,000 miles a year on a normal year, just driving around the country for gigging and touring and stuff. And I do find if I've got a four hour drive to a gig, and then a show, and then a four hour drive home or even less than that, say two hours each way. I go well, with the gig, I sort of have to remember sometimes to include that travel time, that is part of my working day. Even though I feel like it's just sitting in a car, you know, and I think sometimes you have to go Okay, well, you don't have to do, you know, six hours of work at home before you drive two hours to do a gig and then two hours home again, you don't have to do that, you know, not, you're allowed to rest that day before you drive to the gig. And balance is so hard and that's why I think I am jealous of people who have a nine to five where that sorts of balance is forced upon you to a certain extent, you know, you go this is when you work, this is where you don't work.
Katherine May
And knowing that you've got an income and things like that. I mean, how long did you spend kind of trying to make it because you've you know, you've been you've had such a lot of success the last particularly the last year actually you've been everywhere which is wonderful to see. You've been keeping up there for a few years now. Radio four have noticed you like radio four really don't want to know me honestly, we keep trying but they're like no no no too common.
Katherine May
Tell me about it. Well, yeah, that's a story for off air. But...
Katherine May
I don't know how you get away with it, honestly?
Katherine May
Yeah. Yeah, we won't go there. But I, I, when I first went full time as a comedian, so when I try to think now, I went part time in my job first because I couldn't. I was lucky in that, when I started doing stand up, I was single, I don't have kids, and I didn't have a mortgage. So I could take some risks that maybe I might not have been able to do. Had I had some other responsibilities. You know, and it was at that time, and I also started stand up a bit late, really, compared to most people. So I did my first open spot when I was 33. So in some ways, it was easy, because I didn't have these other responsibilities. But in some ways, it was difficult, because, you know, I had a proper job. And so it was like, Am I gonna risk that? You know, am I gonna risk a career for for this whim? And actually, I thought, Well, yes, I am. Because why wouldn't I, you know, and, and a friend said to me, like, no one's ever said, I wish I hadn't chased my dream. You know, no one's ever said that. People have regretted that they didn't. But no one's regretted that they did. Even if it didn't work out, at least you tried. You know, it's that corny, old thing, isn't it?
Katherine May
Yeah, like the worst you're gonna say at the end of that is, I gave it a go, you know, I gave it my best shot. You know? So how does that that's this is what I'm interested in. Because, you know, you've talked about having PDD? How does that work? Like pursuing something? I mean, if it's anything like my careers been, that is so tenuous, and so full of rejection, and so often about fighting other people's disinterest in you (Radio 4) when like, your self confidence isn't necessarily that robust? Yeah, in any way? How do those two things fit together?
Katherine May
Well, the thing is, for me, so a big feature of PDD, and particularly for me, is a this sort of fear of rejection, and, and sort of finding it very difficult to take criticism. And you sort of go well, how and why on earth? Would you be a stand up comedian, if that's how, you know, you feel, but actually, I felt like that my whole life about everything, so it doesn't make a difference to add another thing to it, you know, I'm no more worried about being rejected by an audience than I am. By my partner, you know, constantly, even though he's shown no, we have a joke about it, because I regularly dream that he's dumped me all the time.
Katherine May
Oh, my God, that's really hard
Katherine May
Oh, all the time. But we have this. I said, as long as it's dream, Matt, that's being an asshole, we're fine. You know, we keep it that way around, it's fine. I do constantly think, you know, when he's gonna wake up one morning and realize the terrible mistake he's made. And that sort of, I have to be very mindful of that. Because you don't want to end up being a self fulfilling prophecy. You know, I don't want to be so clearly and worried that you'll leave me that he can't cope. And he leaves me. Do you know what I mean? That and that's something that's I think, was definitely a downfall in relationships in my 20s, when I was just so needy, and clingy. And I've had to learn not to be. And also it's about finding the right person, a person who is secure enough in himself to be able to go, you know, I'm sturdy and I'm fine. And I and it's, yeah, to cope with that. hes a saint really bless him. I'd never tell him that, but he is. So to just sort of add another thing to be, you know, I was whatever job I did, I was worried about failing at it, and worried that I wouldn't be good enough and worried, you know, so it sort of doesn't really matter what the job is. So to go into a job, actually, where everyone feels a bit like that, is sort of a bit, it makes me feel a bit more normal. Because of course, it's normal to worry that an audience isn't gonna laugh at you. That's not me being mad. That's a genuine concern when you're a stand up comedian
Katherine May
and you need that you need to have that concern.
Katherine May
Absolutely. Yes. What drives you that fear that adrenalin that they might not laugh, you might die, because everyone who I talked to about being a comic, you know, says, Oh, I couldn't do it. They're their worries dying on stage. And I always say, well, you, you know, as a comedian, you do die on stage, but you don't actually die. And it's about getting back up there again, the next day. That's the tough bit. But yeah, so I think that the thing I like about stand up for me is somebody who's quite anxious. And, you know, in social situation, people think that if you're a stand up comic, then you are this sort of boundless, self confidence personified and for some that's true. For most of us, it isn't true. And I am a very different person on stage than I would be if you met me in a party. For a start, I probably wouldn't be at the party.
Katherine May
Like you wouldn't meet me at a party.
Katherine May
Yeah, you wouldn't meet me a party because I'd not be there. I think the best parties I've are the ones I haven't been to, because I'm not good with people. I'm not comfortable around, or I don't know. And I'm always worried that and again, it's this fear of rejection, I'm always worried that am I saying too much? Am I saying too little? Am I? Am I being annoying? Am I you know, too this, am I too that, am I? Whereas when I'm on stage with a microphone in my hand, then I know, it's always my turn to speak. And I'm I know that I can't be speaking too much. Does that make sense? You know, and so?
Katherine May
No, I absolutely. Absolutely. I actually love public speaking. Yeah. Which, you know, most people find really unpleasant. But yeah, like, I know that I'm supposed to be holding space at that point. And I'm allowed to talk too much, because that's the expectation. And I'm in control of, I'm in control of it. I like it. It's fine. Also like, not Yeah, nobody's gonna say anything about my work. But I haven't already thought, you know, like, I've already thought worse about it. It just isn't. It isn't a surprise if anyone's critical about it. Yeah. It's weird, isn't it? It's not what people expect,
Katherine May
Totally. And this is what I always say about Twitter, trolls, and things like that. And so this, you know, one of my focuses for my anxiety has always been since I was really young has been about how I look. And it's so weird. And this is exactly what I'm writing about at the moment. But it's a weird thing. Because when someone tells you that they feel ugly, or unattractive, or that they you know, they have these sort of body image issues. If you're a nice well brought up person who's kind and your automatic response is to say, You're not ugly, you're beautiful, right, which is lovely. That's a lovely thing. It's not a helpful thing, sometimes, because I think what often happens, and one of the reasons it's so difficult to talk about, and it's what I found when I tried to write an article sort of putting this into words in in, however, many years ago, eight years ago now in The Guardian, was people got really angry because they felt I wasn't ugly enough to have this opinion about being ugly. And that was, I mean, you look at the comments in that article. It's hilarious. It's half of them saying, Oh yeah`, she is ugly, and half of them saying she's not ugly. You go, Well, this is this is the thing, isn't it? You know, it's all about how you and it's what they fundamentally or willfully misunderstood, is that it doesn't matter whether anyone else thinks I'm ugly or not, it's sort of irrelevant.
Katherine May
It's about your perception.
Katherine May
Exactly. And it's what, you know, I've had a lot of CBT in my life, cognitive behavioral therapy, and the thing that they teach you is about these core beliefs that we have about ourselves, and they usually formed when we're kids, or very young adults. They're not necessarily based on real world evidence, or anything, it can be based on something someone said to you once that you've sort of dwelt upon for however long or, or that you've morphed into meaning something that suits what you think about yourself. And these core beliefs are really hard to shift and whether they're true or not, is utterly irrelevant. Because once they've set in your being, it's very difficult to quit. So you might have the core belief, like I do you know, that I feel unattractive. Now, through CBT use, you're taught to sort of look for evidence to kind of support your point or not support your point. So as much as I might go, Well, you know, I've got someone who wants to marry me so I can't be that unattractive. I've got you know, XYZ I have to that's not my natural state of being my natural state is to think oh my god, I you know, thank god this morning, we're doing this without videos on Otherwise, I would have had to put a full face of makeup on to face Katherine this morning, because she won't want to look at this. You know, that's the default setting. Where is actually I have to override that and go Katherine won't give a shit what you look like this morning.
Katherine May
Also like you know very well, I'm face blind.
Angela Barnes
In fact, I could have got someone to sub in for me.
Katherine May
You actually could! I would have known your voice though. You would have to have voiced over it. But I would be like ah I don't remember her hair being that colour.
Angela Barnes
Yeah so it's...
Katherine May
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like what you're talking about I you know, obviously you have the kind of extreme end of it. You know, it's a really persistent dominant thought that that happens over and over again for you. But it also speaks to being female I think for most of us and to that ongoing experience of wondering if you're pretty enough because so much In our society is judged on pretty. And I find that really, you know, like as a, you know, I'm like 44 this year, I think I keep having to look it up. I'm kind of I'm in my mid 40s now, and my attractiveness is no longer relevant to the world, honestly. I mean, it really, it's just not what I'm out there trying to offer. And I've been married for 20 something years now 22 years, like that, seriously, how attractive you are becomes very, very irrelevant after you've been married that long, because you don't even look at each other anymore. It's like, you assume the other person is still there. I always worry, I'm gonna die of some hideous skin cancer that takes over like the back of my neck, and I can't see it. And my husband just won't notice. I really think that that's a very kind of an acute possibility. Anyway, I'm rambling. What I am trying to say, it's not even funny that ..
Katherine May
Bit dark. But it's quite amusing.
Katherine May
It's so funny that despite the fact that I'm not offering pretty to anyone, and I, you know, like I did used to try and do that. And I gave up because I realized what a fool's errand it was, that I still have that thought that pops into my mind every now and again that like, or the person I'm talking to, is going to be really disappointed because I'm not attractive enough. You know, nobody ever said that writers were supposed to be attractive. I mean, actually quite the opposite, but that it's so persistent in our in our society. And you know, if you say that, I mean, I posted on Instagram recently about noticing how much my face has aged this year. And I meant to in quite a neutral way, actually. But, you know, like, loads of people crowding in to say Oh, but you're ... no, no, no, it's like, that's just not it's not even true, like lying to each other doesn't help my face is aging,
Katherine May
by telling someone that they're beautiful. If they're not, if it's not, even if they're not, but when they're expressing, like you say just a fact say, Oh, my face has aged this year, because everyone's faces age this year, you know, and by saying, by what you then don't say, No, you're wrong, you're actually this, you're gonna hang on a minute, stop negating what I'm saying in a way that you think is helpful. Because why does beautiful have to be the optimum state? The problem is such a complex problem, because we tell our children that looks don't matter. Yet they go out into the world. And every bit of evidence in front of them shows that it does because you know what, Mum? If looks like matter, why'd you put makeup on every time you go out? Why you always dieting? Why? Why is your behavior not matching what you're saying? And I think that's where we like children can get confused about it. Like, we keep telling me this doesn't matter. But it does matter. Because, you know, so and so got picked to play Mary in the Nativity, because she's prettier than me, or, you know, so it does matter or the boys don't want to play kiss chase with me. They want to play it with the this girl, you know that there's all sorts of evidence in the real world that contradicts that. So rather than just sort of dismissing the whole idea that that looks matter, because it feels shallow. going well, yeah, they do matter. Because whether we like it or not, we're all in a beauty contest that none of us asked to be in. Because people comment on my looks when I'm on Mock the Week, you know, they'll tweet and I was to two things, I think with that. One is, if you think that you're doing that to upset me, mate, I've said more upsetting things about my looks this morning, then you can tell me in a tweet. So that's not going to upset me. You have to try harder. And also, it's Who said I had to be pretty to tell jokes on television. How on earth is that relevant to my job? You know,
Katherine May
No one asked that of a male comedian ever. I mean, actually, maybe they do increasingly that I mean, maybe it's maybe that's getting worse,
Katherine May
It is getting worse, definitely is getting worse in a visual culture we live in in this sort of Instagram, culture and tik tok and all the rest of it. Because if you look now, there are more female comics on TV than ever before. But they are almost all myself excluded, but then I'm not on TV that much. But a lot of them are very attractive women. And I don't want to take that away from their comedy, you know, and the fact that they've earned their place there. But the fact is, if you've got two women equally good at comedy, and one of them is hotter than the other one, the hotter ones getting on telly. That's just the way it is. You know, there's there's some programs I don't like to name them because, you know, friends of mine are in them by call programs for clever boys and pretty girls, because the girls are all clever and funny as well. But they also have to be pretty to earn their place. Whereas the boys can just be funny and clever, you know, so they have to take two boxes. And you see on TV all the time, there's that old trope of the sort of, is the Philip Schofield / Holly Willoughby thing, isn't it? It's the older male presenter with beautiful young presenter, the Bruce Forsyth / Tess daily, the you know, and they're aware of it now, and it is changing
Katherine May
But it's not changing enough is that I mean, TV is ultimately full of hot people.
Katherine May
and that's why when someone like me is on TV, who's, you know, not a size 10? And is not conventionally pretty. It gets commented on all the time, you know, and if it wasn't a problem, if it wasn't a thing, it wouldn't get commented on. So that proves that it is a thing, you know. So, I think we have to sort of acknowledge that, that looks matter. But what I think is, the important thing is, particularly with kids is if you know, if your child is worried that they're ugly, rather than just going your not ugly, you're beautiful. is A Go well, why'd you think that? Because that's the chance you've got, you know, they might say, oh, somebody at school said this to me, and you go, Well, did they say that to you do you think because they really think that? Or were they cross with you and that's why they said it? Or? Or were they jealous of something or whether you know, there's many reasons why...
Katherine May
And how painful it must be to the people that have given the insult for it to be so important to them, that they use it against other people, you know, you know, that they're internalizing some kind of demand to be beautiful, as well by the fact that they're throwing that around as an insult.
Angela Barnes
Absolutely. And also, you know, I have a new strategy with with trolls on Twitter. And my strategy now is of usually just mute them, ignore them. That's, particularly if they, you know, these ones that are just a fake name with a fake photo, just trolls, they're just trolls. And the worst thing you can do is to engage with them in any way, because it just feeds them that, you know, that's all they want is to see that they've riled you in some way. But the ones that I do respond to now are the ones where it's somebody who has their picture, and their name because I think you must be hurting, because a happy person doesn't do that. A happy, there's one that always sticks in my mind. And obviously, what I don't do ever is go looking for myself on Twitter, you know, I'd never look. It's only when people @ me on Twitter, so it comes up in my newsfeed that I see these things. So the fact that some people can say what they like about me without tagging me, that's entirely up to them. I don't, you know, it's none of my business what people want to say about me, but when they tagged me in it, knowing that I'll see it, then it's my business. And if they've done that, with their name and their picture, and they so their owning that they're not just trolling, they're owning, that's what they want to say to me. they've, they've made a conscious decision to go, this is me, and this is what I want to say to you. And I had one that just said it was just "@angelabarnes What a hideous oxygen thief you are". And I was just like, wow, and it was this guy. And I just thought, what, what would it take for me to write that to somebody that I don't know, who is a human being What? How bad would my life have to be before I felt that that was, you know, an okay, thing to do. So I just tweeted him and I said, I hope you're all right. Basically, I think I just said something like, you know, a happier secure person doesn't do this. So whatever's going on for you, I hope you find peace, because you clearly something's going on. And em..
Katherine May
That's so powerful. Did he responded?
Angela Barnes
He responded and he apologized. He just said something like, you know, it was something along the lines of you might not be my cup of tea, but I there was no need for me to do that, you know, or that was I don't know why I did that. And I was like, Yeah, I don't don't have to like me. And that's the other thing as well is that I sometimes pick people up on is this sort of sense of entitlement that every single thing on TV should be catered to your exact taste? It just strikes me as such as huge sense of enticements. When I you know, people tweet, you go, I don't think you're funny. It's like, fine, you don't have to, because comedy is subjective. We've all agreed on that. So how can I possibly be funny to everybody? I can't, I see an impossible job. So if I'm not your cup of tea, watch something else. I don't mind. You know, I don't mind if you don't watch me.
Katherine May
We'll be back with more from Angela bonds in a moment. But I just wanted to let you know that I'll be releasing some new dates for my writing courses soon, as well as some brand new online workshops for people who want to explore the concept of wintering a little more. If you'd like to be the first to know go to Catherine high for me.com forward slash newsletters and click the link that's right for you. I promise not to spam you and I'll keep your information safe. And now back to Angela Barnes.
Katherine May
But that's so interesting isn't it because I think most likely 80% of criticism that comes towards you is that it's like, this isn't to my taste. That's what it's that's what it's saying. When when you kind of look into it, and you sort of think, where did you ever get the impression that everything was made for you? Like, at what point did you not think, Oh, I can just change the channel? Or this book isn't for me? Like, nobody was nobody was ever making that offer. And quite often, they're people who you'd never have targeted as a demographic. So they've kind of wandered in and got angry.
Angela Barnes
I’m not for you. It's fine.
Katherine May
I mean, I get like, I get kind of angry right wing, middle aged men shouting at me on Twitter or whatever, saying, you just want everybody to be weak? Er What? Sorry? No, I mean, what? Calm down a minute you know. And you kind of think what, yeah, a bit like you like what's going I mean, I don't ever respond. Sorry, I'm less, I'm less generous than you. But I just think what is going on in your head that made you angry about that, rather than thinking, Oh, hang on, I've got a nuanced disagreement about it.
Angela Barnes
I think there is a certain demographic, where there was a time when everything was made for them. And I think that's a sort of, you know, white male demographic, particularly Not, not only before, you know, I get any angry tweets, but where TV programmes were made for them, you know, and if they weren't, if they were made, they were in a specialist for women's slot, despite us being 51% of the population, you know, you have newspapers would have the woman section, as if we don't, you know, we're not interested in the news, we need our own bit with the makeup tips. And so they were used to everything. But and that's where sometimes, you know, people go ah women, I don't like female comedians, because they only talk about women's stuff. It's like, what are men men's can be male comedians don't talk about male stuff, you know,
Katherine May
Oh, my God, if I have to hear another joke about someone's balls!
Angela Barnes
Or someone's flipping prostate examination, and I remember, Sean Walsh had a lovely, lovely line. He said once and I'll get it completely wrong. But it was, it was along the lines of he said, People think that female comics just talk about their periods all the time. He said, Do you think that male comics wouldn't mention it if they bled out of their dicks? Five days a month?
Katherine May
{Laughs} Brilliant...Oh, we'd hear so much about it?
Katherine May
Of course, it's part of our experience.
Katherine May
Yeah. Yeah. And it's an experience has been hidden for ages. And actually, I think, yeah, exactly.
Angela Barnes
And it's not an experience that, you know, a handful of people go through, it's an experience of 51% of the population. And yet, we're supposed to, because so much has been tailored towards the male audience for so long. And women do find that funny, because that's all we've had, you know. So we've been conditioned to go Yeah, I can laugh at the male experience, because I'm able to be empathetic in that way, or I'm able to laugh at someone's experience that isn't mine. I don't know where this sort of ideas come from, that we can only find things funny if they're directly within our own realm of experience, it's bullshit. It's such a It makes no sense. So you know, I said, women's I don't find women funny. They talk about things I can't relate to. Who said you have to relate to something to find it funny. That's insane.
Katherine May
That's really bizarre idea, actually. And that's the job of storytelling. That's what we tell stories to do to like, give people a hit of that experience. That's what's interesting about it. It's such a strange attitude.
Angela Barnes
Yeah, but that's, you know, entitlement. I think it's been really exacerbated by social media. And you see it on if you watch something like I love a bit I love master chef, right? And whenever celebrity master chefs on I'll have a look at Twitter, and every single time every single time you get people going, Huh supposed to be celebrities, I don't know who they are. And it's like, justy because someone isn't famous to you, yet, doesn't mean they're not famous to someone, you know, a YouTube star that's not famous person. Em it is because they've got 10 million people that are fans of this. So they are famous. I mean, he's likeit or not.
Katherine May
It's a new world to me, but my son watches these like YouTube broadca... YouTube Broadcasters that makes me sound really old doesn't it. YouTube Broadcasters are these young chaps who are talking about Minecraft and adopt me and all this kind of stuff? And they I mean, there's one girl he watches I have to admit they're mostly young men. They do drive me crazy. There are some there's some really problematic stuff that's on there. But let's not go into that for now as a whole podcast, to be made about that. They post up a, you know, 30 minute video of themselves playing Minecraft go dude, bro for, you know, like every day, and every day 10 million people watch it. If that's not famous, I don't know what is actually. I mean, that's extraordinary. I don't think we've ever been able to conceive of that kind of thing before.
Angela Barnes
That's it, just because we don't get it does, we're not supposed to get it. It's like when you know, when I was a teenager, I remember being really pissed off with my dad declared that he liked Nirvana. And I was like, No, that's mine. You can't have that, you know, kids are supposed to like things that adults don't get. That's the law. So I'd be more concerned if, you know, if you said to me, oh, I sit with my son and watch these guys on YouTube. They're brilliant. I go well, that's not right. That's not how it's supposed to be. That's his thing that he gets that you don't.
Katherine May
No and absolutely, and it's, for me, it's quite transgressive. And it's supposed to be you know, it's there's a lot of stuff about making money and stuff that I find really uncomfortable, but maybe I need. But yeah, it is just like, you know, I remember my dad saying the thing about nevermind, this is just too straightforwardly great rock album. And I wanted to kill him when he said that.
Angela Barnes
Exactly stop liking what I like!
Katherine May
Anything other than straightforwardly good rock album.
Angela Barnes
I remember the first, so my parents both loved comedy, radio comedy I was brought up on, and like Monty Python, and all of that my family loved. And I can remember so clearly the first TV comedy that my parents didn't like, that I liked. And that was Mary Whitehouse Experience. And when that came on...
Katherine May
oh my god, are we both Mary Whitehouse geeks
Angela Barnes
Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, we were grammar school girls at the same time.
Katherine May
I was such a fangirl.
Angela Barnes
Oh, but you had to watch it. Because Because the next day at school, that is all everyone was talking about was the last night's episode of the Mary Whitehouse Experience experience. Yeah, so you had to watch it. And I loved it. And my dad didn't find it funny. And I that was the best news in the world. To me. It was like, yeah, you just don't get it. And you know, that's how it's supposed to be, I'm supposed to go to my dad, you don't get it. Because this is for me, not for you, you know, in the same way that Python was to him that his parents didn't get Python, yet. He loved it, you know. And that's all it is now, but it's just on such a massive scale. Because now everyone can be a broadcaster everyone can make content for want of a better word, that it's suddenly on a scale, it's never been on before.
Katherine May
Yeah, and actually, it means that stuff is being expressed that hasn't been expressed before. And, you know, it's really easy to see the negatives in that, but it's hugely positive for so many different groups of people whose you know, who just haven't been represented before. And, you know, there's a political dimension to it.
Angela Barnes
You know, it takes away the gatekeepers, that are the commissioners at channels and things who were always a filter to it. Where. So obviously, they, like you say, there's dark and light to this, there's when anyone can put anything out there, you're gonna have people putting things out there that are unpleasant, or that you don't, you know, conform to your worldview, or whatever. But the other side of that is voices getting heard that were traditionally you know, filtered through..not filtering through those gatekeepers, for whatever reason, be it you know, your fear of ratings being affected fear of whatever, losing money, losing advertising revenue, or whatever. Whereas now, for example, you know, people in the trans community or people, you know, have got an outlet that, you know, they might never have had on television and a mirror and, and it means that young people can see themselves, which is so important. Like, one of the things about being a female comic is that when I was growing up, they weren't really represented. You have Joe Brand, you have Jenny Eclair, you had on the radio, you had Linda Smith, maybe there just wasn't many female comics. So you just sort of went Oh, that's something that's really hard for women to do you have to be exceptional, you know, Victoria Wood, whereas now you see female comics, almost evenly represented Not quite, but almost to a younger now watching TV. There's no reason why comedy wouldn't be for them. You know, it's you have to see it to be in and I just think the YouTube and people being able to make their own content just shows. People can see themselves whoever they are, you can see yourself represented, and that's a really powerful thing
Katherine May
Massively. No, it's so important. And I like one of the one of the bloggers that might you can say blogger, that's wrong isn't it. YouTuber Honestly, I am so old, the my son watches. But ya know, so one of the guys that he watches talks about his ADHD, which, you know, is so useful and positive for so many people to hear. And there's another kid he watches who is autistic and has taught in quite a lot of depth about having difficulties with repeated tics that have caused him loads of problems and how he's, you know, felt very embarrassed about that. But like how actually the friend that he broadcasts with was one of the people that accepted them and accepted them as part of him. And I, you know, my son showed me it because he thought I'd be interested. And I was like, wow, I, you know, when I was a kid, I couldn't have seen that conversation happening anywhere, not just about someone talking about, like, difficulties they're facing, but also hearing someone else's acceptance of them. Like, it's kind of mind blowing. I mean, you know, we come for a lot, you know, looping back to what we were talking about originally, which is your persistent depressive disorder. When we were teenagers. Depression was a dirty word. And it was embarrassing. It was not something that you could have owned up to in public and had expected any kind of positive response.
Angela Barnes
Yeah, absolutely. When I was first diagnosed, I was at university. And I think, I mean, I genuinely think I'd had this condition since I was a child, I think I was an odd child. And I think it had always been there, and it's just part of who I am. And that's why it's not, you know, it's a chronic illness, it's never gonna go away. It's part of my DNA. It's part of who I am. There's no cure, you know, and that's fine. It took me a long time to come to terms with that. And I remember once after a stint in hospital, and I came out and I remember my, my dad saying to me, I, I'd sort of stopped taking medication, I ended up in hospital. And I came out and I was like, I don't want to take the drugs. I don't because I just saw it as a failing. And my dad is a is a type one guy was is no longer with us, but he was a type one diabetic. And so he'd been injecting himself with insulin since he was a seven year old. And he said to me, he just went okay, well, you don't take your meds, medication. I'll stop taking mine. And I went what are you talking about? And he said, Yeah, no, he said, You're right yet medications are failing. So I'm going to stop taking mine I was like it's different it's different. He said, it's not different. It's like you you've got deficiency, you take medication to see if that's a failing, Then am I failing by taking insulin? Because I can't produce it? Yeah, He was great like that. And it really brought it home to me was just like, Oh, yeah, it's it's, it's no different. It's no different. It's a it's a chemical imbalance that the medication restores. And I know that now, it took me a long time to come to terms with that, because it was a it was seen as being a real sort of talking point. She's on antidepressants. She's on this , she you know, she has to take drugs, she's mad, she's all these things. Whereas now kids are so open. I, I had a lovely moment. My friend has a...He's 16 now, but it's a couple years ago, so you'd have been about 14. And I know you and I Katherine both grew up in Kent, and we're grammar school girls where they have they still have the archaic grammar school system. And I was talking to my friend's son who's at Maidstone Boys Grammar School. And I was just chatting to him. You know, I was asking how school was and stuff and talking about his friends. And he was telling me a story about something I can't remember what it was. And he just said, really matter of fact, Lee's 14. He said, Oh, my friend, Ollie, he's gay. And he did this this. And I was just like, Whoa, when I was 14 at grammar school, in Kent, I'm sure I had friends that were gay, but I definitely didn't know it. And they definitely weren't out. You know, and I was like, Oh, this is progress. This is amazing. Because it wasn't a you know, a thing. It wasn't making a point of I've got a friend who's gay. Can you believe it? It was just oh, by the way, he's gay. And he did this and this. I was like that in Maidstone a 14 year old at a grammar school in Maidstone. And this is real progress. This is real. You know, and it made me so happy. I was like, oh, I've got hope for this generation. That they're just so accepting. Y
Katherine May
Yeah, no, it's really true. I've got some friends with an eight year old who's already told them that he fancies boys. And you know, everyone's just like, isn't that lovely. We're just like, Oh, it's so nice that you're talking about that already. it's changed.
Angela Barnes
It really has I my friends is the same friend that she's got three kids. So the the oldest was the one I was just talking about, but her middle son is he's bright. I mean, if any of them are going to be a comedian, it's this one. He's such a drama queen. I love him. But from a from a really young age. He's got a little sister who's maybe two years younger than him. They're quite close in age, and they're really close. They get on really well. The two younger ones, but he would, like couldn't understand why she could have fairy dresses, you know, so he's moms that way. If you want a fairy dress, you can have a fairy dress. As you know, and one day that I can non uniform day at school, and he really wants you to wear a fairy dress. And she really was like, do I let him because, you know, I want him to feel fine if that's what he wants to wear, but I don't want to, you know, go here Off you go do have a nice day of bullying. You know, it's sort of, but it was just completely fine. Like he went in his fairy dress. Oh, he's got a fairy dress on course. Yes. That's the sort of thing he does. And I just thought that's, there's absolutely no way in the 80s in Maidstone that that would have anyone's parent would have sent a boy to school in a fairy? It just wouldn't have happened.
I really? No.
Katherine May
I mean, it's like more than that. It would have been dangerous. It would have been actively dangerous and frightening. And yeah, we've changed
Angela Barnes
Yay
Katherine May
Lovely to talk to you. I've got like a final question. Yes. Which I guess I mean, I just thinking this while you were talking and talking about how you know how much you struggled with, and like, and I think how invisible that is to people because they see you like up on stage being being funny and being funny, is soon as the same as being happy, which I don't think is necessarily true. Actually, I think a lot of the funniest people aren't very happy. And that's where they find they're funny. But I wonder if it's, you know, those awful things where people say, this is more of a comment than a question. This is more of a comment than a question, but it strikes me that the the reason you're so robust about this stuff is because of that sort of background of depression and that background of self criticism. And it's it's almost like that makes stuff possible for you that isn't possible for people who don't have that hugely critical self narrative, you know, that, that really ugly conversation with yourself that you have sort of makes you really robust? Actually, How does that work?
Angela Barnes
I do think there's something in that I think there's, you know, there's something in the fact that really, no one can ever say anything to me as bad as what I say to myself, I am my own worst critic. And I know that's a real sort of thing that people say, but I really am, and I don't think anyone has ever said things about my work in reviews or anything like that, that I haven't said worse about. So you know, if somebody made a point in a review, I think very rarely Has there ever been something where I hadn't already picked up on it? If you know what I mean, we hadn't gone? Well, I haven't gone Yeah, yeah, no, that's a fair comment. I did do that. Or I that wasn't as good as it could have been that bit, or whatever. And there's something in I mean, I did a whole show about this, I did a show called rose tinted, which is about how you know, my whole life, people think I'm a pessimist. And I expect the worst. But I stand by the fact that that's not necessarily a terrible way to live your life, because then you're always prepared for the worst. And actually, when the worst doesn't happen, it's a really lovely feeling. And I compare it to how I quite like having bad dreams, because I have a bad dream. And I wake up and my reality is wonderful. Whereas if I have a really good dream, where everything's brilliant, you wake up and realities, shit, you know. So I just think, if I, if I, this sort of robustness, I think comes from expecting the worst, and nine times out of 10, the worst doesn't happen. And so that's, you know, whatever does happen is a positive, if that makes sense.
Katherine May
And if the worst does happens, you're prepared, right?
Angela Barnes
Prepared for it. Yeah, Well I knew that was gonna happen, you know, so I am prepared for it. And, and I don't necessarily think that all this sort of think positive, and it'll happen stuff is, you know, there's something to be said for a bit of visualization. And for, you know, hoping for, but also, to constantly be having your hopes dashed is, particularly in the industry, I work in it, there's a lot of rejection. And there's a lot of times when, you know, you see maybe people that should be doing what you see all the time where you go to your local comedy club, and you'll see actually, like, how are these people not alive at the Apollo? They're brilliant. And you go, Well, there's a myriad reasons why they're not. Yeah, and one of them is just luck. You know, and, and I, you know, I never underplay the role of luck in my life. You know, sometimes I might overplay it a little bit, because people go to me Now come on Angela, it's not all luck is it you have worked hard, you have done this? And I say, Yes, I have. But yeah, you can't deny that. There's been a sprinkling of luck in there. Because, you know, there's other people that could do what I do that aren't doing it, if that makes sense. And so, it's a limited field for people that can be on television doing what they do. So I remember when I first when I first got offered to be sort of more regular on Mock the Week so I'd done a couple of series where I'd done one or two episodes, and my agent phoned me up. And my agent I always I always says my agent is brilliant. Because he's really good at knowing when to push me and when not to, he's really good at knowing how to talk me off the edge of a cliff, and how to go, you know, okay, she I know, she really doesn't want to do this. And if I push her, it's gonna send her into a spiral. But also he knows when to go, she can do this, she just doesn't think she can. So I need to show her she can. You know, he's very good at that. And a perfect example of that was when he phoned me up, he said, brilliant news. They want you to do four episodes of Mock the Week this series, I said, I can't do that. He said to me, You can't do that. I said, I'm not good enough. I'm not I'm not like that. I've been fluking it so far, and I can't fluke it four times in a series. And he had to go right. You know, they're not doing this because they feel sorry for you. You know, out of charity. Because it's like, Aw, she, let's give her some work. You know, he's like, they're making a program. They want to be the best programme it can be. And they've decided that for that to happen, they want you on four their episodes. So why on earth are you you know, it's not your place to decide whether you're good enough or not, it's theirs. He talk me off that ledge, but my instant reaction was no, tell them no I can't do it. And that's where having an agent is good. Because otherwise I would stay in my comfort zone forever. And sometimes I need a kick up the ass to get out of it.
Katherine May
Oh, I mean, having the right support network is so important. I mean, I like that made me think about my agent last week who said, you know, this thing we're negotiating? They've asked if you'd want a fee for that. I was like, Oh, no, I'm not bothered. And she was like, Katherine, we will be asking for a fee for that. Oh, yeah, you're right. My default it to the to this, you know, immediate assumption that No, of course, they won't want me if they have to pay me for it.
Angela Barnes
I think particularly as women, particularly as working class women, we're taught to be grateful for any pennies, people throw our way. You know, you go Oh, you can pay me for that.
Katherine May
Oh, my God, I felt I feel embarrassed about every penny I earn. Like every, every time I earn money, I feel a bit like, Oh, God, I rip someone off really badly there
Angela Barnes
It's so insane. Because you have worked so hard, you know, and also have a skill that not everyone's got, like, if we could all be writers and comedians, then everybody would be a writer and a comedian. Right. So it's, and I think that sometimes, particularly with stand up is I forget that there was a process to get to where I'm at. And I just think, like, I feel like I'm hoodwinking everyone. I'm like, literally anyone could do this. Like, why are they? Why are they choosing me? It's so easy. It must be easy, because if I can do it, it must be an easy thing to do, you know, because I don't remember having to learn how to do it. And, and sometimes I, I sort of go there's a I did a comedy course years and years 10-12 years ago. And yeah, it was 12 years ago, Blimey, at The Komedia in Brighton. And it's a brilliant course a Jean Edwards course I really recommend it. Because what it did for me was just gave me I would never have had the confidence to just go out there and give it a go without having some structured way in and because of that course Jill Edwards who runs it who is absolutely brilliant. She now because I live in Brighton, I go back and do a Q&A with her students when she runs a course now she runs it twice a year. And I'll go in and do a Q&A on a Saturday afternoon with the students so they can ask, you know what it's like being a working comic and all those sorts of things. And then I at the end of the course, there's so there's about 30 people do the course. And at the end, they have a new act night you have to audition, because 12 of you get to them performing this showcase. And of course, I did that in 2009. That was my first ever gig that showcase. So now I host the showcase that Komedia that happens twice. I MC it. And it's really good for me to do that. Because they're all nervous. And they're all starting out. And it's a great atmosphere. There's 300 people, it's all their friends and family they've invited and it's you know, they can't fail really at this gig. And you always say to them, you're going to feel like you know, you're the best comedian in the world. You can feel like you're Richard Pryor after this. And then you're going to go and do an open spot in a room above a pub somewhere and die on your arse and that's reality. Enjoy this moment. And it's really good for me to remember that that's where I came from, to where I am now. You know, I came from doing that gig where I wasn't very good. I had about four jokes that weren't very good. And, you know, I was nervous, and I was, my voice was wobbly. And to go Oh, actually, yeah, no, I didn't. This didn't happen overnight, like I did. I have had to work hard. And I have had to hone a skill. And because of that..
Katherine May
That's so important, isn't it to remember that?
Angela Barnes
Yeah. And that's it. And it's because of the work you've done to get to the point is what people are paying you for? Because otherwise they pay one of these nervous kids doing their first gig if they were good enough. Do you know what I mean? Like, you have to remind yourself of that. This didn't happen overnight.
Katherine May
And that's where the hard work. That's the hard work part of it, isn't it? Actually, it takes you know, it takes five minutes if you're talented, because I do you know, the truth is that people that do succeed in our industries are talented in the first place. But it takes talent which you know, which you bring to the table and Then 10 years of hard work on top of that talent, To hone that talent into something that is exceptional enough to, to attract, you know, national attention or whatever. And that's, you know, that's maybe the conversation that we don't have enough that actually, you know, yes, you do you need an element of talent, it's very hard to learn talent, you know, like, you can't, you can't really study for that. But what you can study for is like the 95%, that you need. The polish and control and skill and experience like that. That cannot be, you know,
Angela Barnes
Just the willingness to do so much before it breaks through, you know, for every comedian, you see on telly, people go, people think that your first TV appearance is your first time doing comedy, they don't see the 10 years you spent on the circuit before it to get to that point, you know, and I think with with writing and with comedy, part of the problem is when people's perception is that when writing is good. And when comedy is good, it's good, because you don't see the hard work. If you see the hard work, then it's not good. You know? I mean, because there's been nights when I've made comedy hit like hard work, and they were not good nights. And so, so because because the trick is in concealing the hard work, people think it isn't hard work because they watch it. And it's just a person talking on a stage or it's just some words in a book, you know. And so that's why I think it's very easy for people to think that it's an easy job, and that they could do it. And I think there are a lot of people that have that the talent, as you said, but without the hard work and the drive with that. I there's people I know who are really good at comedy, but they're also lazy. Now I'm, you know, I'm lazy in my own way. But I have a work ethic. And my laziness usually comes out of my depression. It's not a laziness, it's a shutdown. And that's a different thing. where some people are like, are, you know, when I was starting out, I was I'd be doing a full day at work, then getting on a train and going to Leicester for a gig and then coming home and then do you know, that's the reality is it the only way you get better is by getting on stage and doing it all over the country for nothing for a long time. And there's a lot of people aren't willing to do that. And that's fine. But if you're not willing to do that, you're not going to get good at it. You know? And that's the same with writing. I think that unless you're constantly writing. The perfect novel doesn't fall out of you. In one go. And
Katherine May
Yeah, I mean, I've had university students that have said to me, like, right, I've decided I want to write a novel. This is my one shot. If I can't make this work, then forget it. And I you know, I always feel like you're saying to those people forget it now them?
Angela Barnes
Yeah, well don't waste your time.
Katherine May
You won't get there. Yeah, you won't get there in the two years that you know, that you've given yourself. You're not committed enough to this? Like, you know, and honestly, that often those people's commitment does change when they realize that but not always. And it's sort of like, no, sorry, if you if you're not willing to keep going, despite endless failure, and despite being endlessly dissatisfied with your own work, then, no, you're not, you're not going to do it. Sorry. You know, you won't want to hear that piece of criticism. But I'm right.
Angela Barnes
Yep totally. I think the best comics, what I know, I've never done a show that I think is finished, even when I'm touring around the country, and then I put it to bed, I still go when I put that show to bed. And that tours done. I go, never got around to finishing that. You know, and I think that's part of being a good writer, is that feeling that that something was never the best it can be.
Katherine May
But I also think there's this kind of myth that you're, you're striving to reach a fixed point. And it shocks people when I say to them, like, I still throw out the majority of what I write, like, the majority of what I write is not good enough and falls well below my standards. And you know, I'm writing a new book at the moment. And I have probably thrown out at least a book and a half worth of writing already on this book. And people sort of say so you draft loads, It's like "Oh no I've not even reached a draft yet".
Angela Barnes
Well, this is the stage I'm sort of at. Of going. I feel like I've done so much work and I've got so little to show for it because I keep coming back to it and going it's not good enough. It's not good enough. And that's not just me being the hypercritical mean that I am that's me going I don't want to show that to anybody because it's not right. You know, I know when something's not good enough, and the whole process taking me so much longer than I thought it would, even though I know I always say with with writing comedy, you know 90% is writing for the bin. If I sit down to write some material. If I write for a day if I work for a day to write some stand up. I am ecstatic if I've got one joke at the end The day and then the day was worth it if I come away, and there's something I can try out on stage the next day, that's been a good day's writing. Most days, I look at it and go, No, there's nothing there. And that's the reality of it, is you have to, you know, you have to keep the gold doesn't just arrive, you have to keep writing, and eventually, hopefully, some gold will spill out. You know, but you have to push past a point.
Katherine May
Almost by accident, it's almost like it's a numbers game.
Angela Barnes
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's always the way I can sit down at a desk and go, Well, I'm gonna write some stand up today. But you know that the best joke in my show will be one that came to me in the car, you know, or in the shower or while doing something else, every single time?
Katherine May
Yeah, every single time. I mean, honestly, one of the best writing tips I can give is go and do the washing up like it will come while you're doing that. It won't come while you're sitting at your desk ever.
Angela Barnes
The tyranny of a blank screen is the worst thing. I make it compulsive note taker, as I'm going around, and when I'm in my car, because I do a lot in normal times, do a lot of long drives, you know, tour and stuff. And so I get, it's so frustrating when you have ideas, and you're driving and I've got to get this down. So I use Siri, you know, hey, Siri, take a note. Get this down. So I do. And then of course, I have the joy of trying to work out what on earth Siri has written compared to what I was trying to say.
Katherine May
Angela, thank you so much for talking to me today. It's been amazing. It's been such a lovely conversation. I feel like we could have done it for about five hours. I think we need our own podcast to advise wayward writers and comedians
Angela Barnes
Definitely what I need is more ways to procrastinate from actually writing comedy. So let's do that
Katherine May
We'd feel much better about the world though wouldn't we. We'd be like oh no don't do it like that. Go do some washing up.
Angela Barnes
Absolutely. Oh, that was so much fun.
Katherine May
And that's all from us today. Thank you so much to Angela Barnes for such a frank and fascinating conversation. Hopefully she'll be back on tour soon. And you can follow her on Instagram or Twitter for more information. Links are in the show notes. I'll be back next week with another brilliant writer who's intimate with winter. Thanks for listening.
Show Notes
Angela Barnes has zero tolerance for anyone reassuring her that she's pretty - it talks over her lived experience, and does nothing to change her self-perception. Here, she discusses living with Persistent Depressive Disorder, which has made her whole life feel like the drizzly English climate, but which has also made her more able than most to endure the hard-knocks life of a stand-up comedian.
After a career in health and social care, Angela Barnes took the plunge and embarked on her life-long dream to be a comedian. Within just a couple of years she had won the BBC New Comedy Award in 2011 and has now gone on to star in BBC Two’s Mock The Week, Live At The Apollo and Hypothetical on Dave.
We talk about:
Persistent Depressive Disorder
Dealing with trolls
Making a career as a stand-up comedian
Seeing yourself as 'ugly'
Links from this episode:
To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack
For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School
Wintering is out now in the UK, and the US.
