Marlee Grace on journeying to the center
The Wintering Sessions with Katherine May:
Marlee Grace on journeying to the center
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In this frank and wide-ranging conversation, Marlee Grace talks about the process of finding a life that makes you happy. Drawing on her book, Getting to Center, she talks about finding love, living with addiction and the ongoing quest to find balance in life that's led to her decision to leave Instagram (at least for a while).
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Please note the transcript is automatically generated and may not be completely accurate.
Katherine May 00:06
Hello, I'm Katherine May and welcome to the wintering sessions, the podcast that sets out to learn from the times when life is frozen. This week I'm talking to Marlee Grace, the writer, dancer quiltmaker, an entrepreneur whose book, Getting to Center counsels us to slow down and listen. In this Frank and wide ranging conversation, Marlee talks about the process of finding a life that makes you happy. This includes finding love, learning to live with addiction, and her ongoing quest to find balance in life. That's led to the decision to leave Instagram, at least for a while.
Katherine May 00:56
So Marlee, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on my podcast today.
Marlee Grace 00:59
Thank you so much for having me, Katherine. I'm really excited to talk.
Katherine May 01:03
I feel like we're becoming best friends, we spent an hour talking last night for a different reason.
Marlee Grace 01:09
Like, we need to exchange phone numbers, we need to stay in touch, I have so much to talk to you about.
Katherine May 01:15
Yeah, text me. So I wanted to get you on the podcast when I read. Well, first of all, I read how to not always be working, which is just such a big theme in my life. And then I was privileged enough to have a proof of Getting to Center your most recent book. And in that you talked a lot about, you know, the huge changes your life has been through, and I kind of wanted to, you know, I see you as a person who handles change in a really creative way. And I kind of wanted to talk about that. But first of all, I know that you're about to take a social media holiday. And I would love to talk to you about that in this moment. Because you're in the kind of white heat of that decision. I think, can you tell me a bit about it?
Marlee Grace 02:04
Yeah, well first of all I just love so much that you refer to it as a holiday. I've been referring to it as a sabbatical, which sounds like so academic and serious. And like, I have to leave. And it actually, I'm such a sensitive person. It's like really easy for me to like get teary eyed just want to like, hear certain things. And during holiday, I was like, Oh, I'm going on a holiday like this is like holiday is you know, in the US we use that word more as like a celebration, like a...
Katherine May 02:43
Oh, of course. So I was thinking vacation, of course. But yeah, sorry.
02:47
So that's why I love that I'm like, Oh my god, this is the holiday. So you know, in Getting to Center in how to not always be working. And in this, um, I self published a zine that came out the summer of 2018. So just before how to not always be working that's also about it has this it's in front of me, it has this long winded title that says how a photo and video sharing social networking service gave me my best friend's true love a beautiful career and made me want to die.
Katherine May 03:16
Wow.
Marlee Grace 03:16
And you know, I don't say that lightly. You know, it's like the interface of an app like Instagram really sucks the aliveness out of body and my heart. And so, you know, since summer of 2018, two and a half years ago, I've been really publicly writing and thinking about my own addiction to Instagram and other people's and so it felt really like spirit led and channel to pick these specific dates, which are January 17th, to May 17. It's a you know, it gives my current book about three months to really have its time on Instagram. And then um the four months was a little bit arbitrary. It was a little bit like I think, if I can't figure out how to make any money, I think I'll have enough to live through that time. And then and yeah, like, you know, one day at a time, God willing, May 17 will be my 10 years without a drink. And so I was like, you know, so many people have really followed my path of sobriety with me on yet feels really special to want to, like, share that day with them. And so I don't know what's gonna happen after that. It seems like career sabotage, to not just log out and leave the page up. But the call to me feels really like to temporarily deactivate to not exist there to not be a part of the path of other people's attention being taken from them.
Katherine May 04:56
That's really a hard decision. I think. I mean, I think Lots of people find that hilarious of me to say it. But talk to me a little bit about the addictive nature that you felt. I mean, I think everyone's addiction to social media maybe is for different reasons and has a different quality. Talk to me about the quality of of why you find this so addictive.
05:19
Yeah, you know, I've been really grateful I started a Patreon community this year, and we've been having these monthly zoom meetups called social social, where we all just talk about why we're addicted, how we're dealing with it. And it's really interesting that people have really different reasons for not being able to take breaks, you know, part of my addiction is so embarrassing is the word that comes up for me like, it's really like, I feel like I've healed so much of the like, compare and despair or checking what other people are doing like, this feels sort of like astrologically, like post Saturn return, like being 32 years old versus being 28. Just even in those few years, just feeling like I feel confident in myself and confident in my work. Yeah, so I have that as much as I maybe once did mine. So like, I have a sticky note in front of me that says how intimately powerful the app is, like, it's just so intimately powerful, like just the interface of the way my thumb like dances over the screen and in the app, and I just check and check and check and I pick up my phone and the way it hits the dopamine in rushes in my brain. That's the part that reminds me of the physical addiction of alcohol. And how that was for me was like, I had a mental obsession and a physical addiction was how I describe it. That's where it's so interesting, the mental obsession of Instagram is so much less for me than it used to be like, I do find really real connection and celebration in that space and it's really draining for me.
Katherine May 07:19
I think it's really interesting to talk about that physical relationship we have with these apps. You know, there's a, there's a soothingness, almost to running your hands over the screen. I mean, I you know, our phones themselves are designed to feel great in the hand and they do they feel so native there. And then you add these, yeah, these apps that are giving us this cycle of reward and the dopamine rush that comes with it. And sometimes I you know, I find myself just cycling between instagram and twitter, instagram and twitter until I have to kind of check in and think, what are you doing? What's your purpose here? What are you, there's not even any new things for you to look at. You're literally just touching, touching, touching, touching almost such a weird thing. Got briefly very addicted to I don't know if you know this game, but a game called Merge Dragons earlier this year.
Marlee Grace 08:12
No but I'm like, should I look it up?
Katherine May 08:16
No, don't look it up. It's really, I love those kind of organisational games where you can make the world for really good and ordered and like you're in control of it. And that's exactly what got me about it. But then I found that I could not stop thinking about it, like replicated itself in my mind. And somebody sent me an article about how it was designed to do exactly that to absolutely be the peak of addictivity. And I read it and just deleted it from my from my phone. I mean, I cannot let myself be exploited by that, it was appalling.
Marlee Grace 08:56
Wow. I mean, you know, again, this part has been relieved a little bit for me, but I just when I announced the sabbatical the other day, I had multiple friends reach out to me really talking about the seriousness of the addiction for them. Like I think that's where we're just not like, okay, we're not seeing people who are using the app, talk about how serious their addiction is. Because that would be embarrassing. It would be embarrassing, and be like, I'm so addicted to this, but look at me using it. Whereas people who are really talking about it are mostly men, mostly white straight sis men who have written books we have like Cal Newport with digital minimalism. We have all these men writing books, who none of them built, or ever relied on social media, to have careers. And so there's this gap in the system to me, and that's where Like, I don't really want to leave social media for four months, that doesn't look I do, and I don't like I'm kind of in a groove, I kind of like it. And I know I'm addicted to it. And there's so many people in my life who are like, I wake up, and I'm obsessed, I wake up at people who have this where I'm going to cry. People are like, I wake up in the night thinking about it. And..
Katherine May 10:23
Wow that's powerful.
Marlee Grace 10:25
Yes. And so that's where I'm like, Can we leave? Like, can we disappear from that space and not have to complete like, I've sort of heard of a few people who have left and they, they went back to school, they got new jobs, like, they didn't continue that same career. And so I'm just really interested in like, I feel very called to, to charge the experiment forward, for others. And for myself. That's why my patreon feels really important. And my newsletter is like, I'm gonna really, it feels like an offering to me to be like, okay, here's what I'm doing to plan. Here's how it feels. There's so many people too scared to do it. And I'm scared, but I like to be scared and do stuff anyway. So
Katherine May 11:12
Well, I mean, I think, you know, we need to talk in six months time and see what happens. You might be a completely new person, you might be completely full of this new mission. It could be amazing. Yeah. It's really unpredictable. It's fascinating. Well, I mean, I'd love to move on a little bit. But I think in lots of ways, this is, you know, these things are really linked together, aren't they? Because, I mean, I can't even imagine how this worked. But you actually moved town or not town like state even as it just as the pandemic broke out this year. And I would love to know more about that now, really, and to talk about, I mean, the isolation that you must have felt, so that's why I'm saying it's linked to Instagram, because surely Instagram has been a relief for you a little this year to for some stability, presumably.
Marlee Grace 12:01
Oh, yeah. So yeah, my partner is a wildland firefighter. And so we were living in Michigan, which is where I'm from, and she was like, OK, I'm gonna, you know, look for a job. And she got this amazing job as a Santa Fe hot shot, which is a very elite, firefighter. So we were so excited, like, she got this amazing job. And we found this like, really dreamy, tiny town south of Santa Fe, and it just, everything was really like, running up beautifully for us. And we had been living in the woods in Michigan, and so really isolated there. And so we were also just like, wow, we're gonna move to like a really social place. Like, I can't wait to like, meet our new friends and go places. And so while we were driving across the country, the clarity hadn't fully set in, it was like that first week of March, where people were really starting to be like, I think something's not right. And it's gonna, gonna start to be intense. And we arrived here in New Mexico on March 15. So March 17, pretty much everything stopped. And then I was faced with Jackie pretty much was gone most of the time for the next six months, doing a really dangerous job. So I was sort of like, living in this new town of a couple 100 people living by myself with our dog while my partner was. I mean, she likes to say that it's not it wasn't dangerous, but I don't know, you show me a picture of that many flames next to someone you love.
Katherine May 13:48
Yeah I mean I didn't even know that was a specialist job. I mean, that sounds extraordinary.
Marlee Grace 13:54
And, you know, she made it out. And she's fine. And, and so now we're sort of shifting into a new season of being isolated and around each other a lot, which I think a lot of couples are just navigating right now. And so, yeah, we've been really pulling in the tools and, you know, finding new ways to coexist. And it's honestly really been a really beautiful season of growth, I think, just for both of us individually, and, and as a partnership. But well, I want to just share about social media in that way that again, the contradiction at serves is like yeah, there was a lot of times that I'm so grateful to have had the connection. And again, like it's hard to talk about because I just feel you know, I feel and sell out my online courses with amazingly inspiring students who found who find me there and I'm so grateful for that and it connected me and there was a lot of anxiety this year, I feel like I'm really been interested in the sort of two like, thinkers I sort of look to are Adrian Marie Brown and Clementine Morrigan, who both are writers and people who talk about kancil culture in really interesting ways. And I think the left really ate to the left this year, like, I think we really saw a like, people just coming for each other that it was a little bit like, Hmm, I wonder if we could have been on the same team? So
Katherine May 15:32
it's been an incredibly complex year, I think. Yeah, as you say, kind of politically, there's been real emotional labour involved in getting through this year, like both within our own families of you know, friendship groups and and with the outside world. And that's, that must be quite hard thing to navigate when you're undergoing loads of other change, too.
Marlee Grace 15:52
Exactly. And so that's where I think a lot of people got really anxious logging onto social media, I think there was an energy of Will I be next for something I did yesterday for a tweet I made 10 years ago, like, there was just so little dialogue, I'm not talking about like, real abuse, like, I think that there's a time for public discourse, maybe I don't know, but um just not liking someone became a reason to kind of take them down. And so I think what we witnessed was, and this is sort of what Adrian Marie Brown talks about, is this idea of like, we're also isolated and alone, that the only way to gain control, which now reminds me of your game, is like we're all grasping for control, we want to control our worlds. And so what better way to do that than to control who's in it, it made me connected, it made me feel nervous, but some of that anxiety, like, dipped me deeper into my own work, like my own personal work, my practice, you know, it was kind of like, put your head down and do your work. And that has felt, that felt good. But
Katherine May 17:05
yeah, I mean, I think I think it's been a really good year to reflect on our own behavior. And, you know, think about whether you're part of that cult, you know, for me to think about what part I play in that culture of making people feel uncomfortable, and whether I'm actually inviting people to change their views and giving them the opportunity to hear, you know, the difference rather than just kind of telling them off, because I think it's so easy to scold people for not knowing what you already know. But there was a point when I didn't know what I know, now as well. I've been thinking about that a lot this year.
Marlee Grace 17:41
Yeah, I mean, I feel and that's where I've loved. And I'm sadly not going to be able to maybe I can send you a note later, but I'm the person who develops this, but there's a lot of like, beautiful infographics about like, the web, and like who you are in the web of, you know, transformative justice or just like social circles, you know, it's some people's job to like, yell at other people. Like, I don't think, you know, I think about like the justified anger of black women in 2020, who are educators and who are angry and, I love to follow them and like, be encouraged to do my work. And I'm just I'm not a yeller. And that's okay, like, I'm more gentle. Come on over here, like we have work to do. Other people are the yellers. You know, it's like, I think that everybody, I don't think one is right or wrong. And I think it's helping to, you know, that sort of like where I'm like, Come take my quilt class, we learn how to quilt, and then like, they get there. And I'm like, here's how we dismantle white supremacy through quilting.
Katherine May 18:54
It's a hidden agenda.
Marlee Grace 18:57
That's where we all have our ways, and I think less judgement of other people's ways would really serve. That's where I can't wait for my holiday. I can't wait to not see people judge each other. That's what I can't wait to stop looking at.
Katherine May 19:13
It's that sense of jadedness that I think we're all carrying towards the end of the year. But yeah, just absolute exhaustion.
Katherine May 19:23
We'll be back with more from Marlee in a moment. But first I want to tell you about my online course Wintering for Writers, which is back online after a successful first run this summer. Wintering for Writers is designed to be a beautiful reflective process for writers who are currently struggling, as so many are in this pandemic year. If you're feeling blocked or losing hope it's packed with videos and thought provoking texts to help you to rethink your practice. And there's an exclusive workbook to support your reflection. Best of all, you can work at your own pace and in complete privacy as you Write yourself back into your creative flow. To find out more, go to katherinemay.com, and click on courses, or follow the link in the show notes. And now back to Marlee Grace.
Katherine May 20:18
I'm really interested to pick up on what you were saying about your relationship and how, you know, it was tough at first, but actually, it's this kind of enforced period of being together has actually improved things. Because I feel like I'm hearing that from a lot of people actually, that first of all, there was massive conflict, and everyone was talking about COVID rows, you know, and how we were kind of all fighting. But now I'm hearing a lot of people talk about the opposite about how they've learned to really get used to being in their partner's company much more like how they've maybe talk some stuff through and come to terms with stuff. I don't know if that's true for you. But I feel like that's true for me and my husband, actually.
Marlee Grace 20:55
Yeah, it was funny, because in some ways, we have the opposite of a lot of other couples, because we started COVID, so distanced from each other. Like we were seeing people fighting. And we were like, weird, we like, we kind of got the spice of like, long distance relationship, because Jackie kept being gone for two to three weeks. So like, like, send fun texts and be flirty, and she would get home and it would be fun. And she did Oregon in two days, like it was truly like she was gone for many months, she would be home for two to five days a month sort of thing. And so, but it was interesting, because, you know, yeah, my struggle was like, I'm alone all the time. And sort of like, I'm around people all the time. And so yeah, yeah, for the last few months, it has been this dance of, I think I've you know, I've heard people refer to as, like the dance of intimacy, like how do you cultivate spaciousness, that allows you to want to be close to someone, which is always working out in, in all my relationships? And yeah, you know, even like, last night, we had a night of, we're lucky to have a lot of space in our home. And so we were just in, like, I was quilting in one room, she was painting in the other, and I think we're even just in the evening, we tend to sort of converge. And I think we're sort of getting used to being like, Oh, we can actually do separate things. And so yeah, you know, the words I use are sort of like sacred union, like, how do I move from codependency to sacred union. And I think something I've noticed with my friends is just a lot of people sharing that, um, quarantining together has actually brought up a lot of like, anxious attachment or codependency in couples that otherwise aren't usually experiencing that, because usually, we're really used to, like, one of us going out to hang with a friend or like, yeah, socializing together, and how much energy friendship gives our partnership or one person going on a fun trip and returning to that, it's like, there's no returning. And so that just becomes exhausting to be like, I know, everything that you do and think and feel. I don't know, I feel so grateful. You know, this is really my, you know, other than my marriage, my like, longest most serious partnership, and I just feel part of the quality of this partnership is like, you have to have a partner who's like willing to put in that same work of like untangling What's going on? And so yeah, I feel really great.
Katherine May 23:56
That's the kind of lucky thing in a lot of ways. I mean, I you know, to actually have someone that's willing to work on stuff, alongside you, I think, is unfortunately really rare. And it's like such a thing to be cherished. I would, I'd love to ask if this isn't too terrible a question. And how you how you cope when Jackie is off fighting fires? I mean, it seems like a dangerous thing that she does. How do you cope?
Marlee Grace 24:21
Um, well,
Katherine May 24:23
that's a big question.
Marlee Grace 24:25
I actually love it. Because, you know, it really reminds me of back to social media. And I remember feeling like Man, I wish um, because sometimes she also doesn't have service for days at a time. Yeah, I sometimes had this feeling like I wish some of my friends were checking in more with me. And I realized that my social media projection never shifted. I was mostly always like, Here I am writing a book. Going around to pop music like I think people Just look at that. And they're like, oh, Marlee looks like she's doing good. Where I would literally watching like, a full season of Friday Night Lights in a day only eating frozen pizza, like staring, you know? Yeah, like, yeah, I coping was not perfect. I really struggled in a lot of ways. I feel like I was not nearly as worried as I thought I would be like, I was able to really go about my life, I hired an assistant who lives in LA, and we work remotely. And it was really helpful to just dig into my work. And like, really, that's, you know, I built the Patreon community and started writing more, you know, put the finishing touches on my book. Yeah, elipse the idea for my quilt class, like I really leaned into my work, which is my art practice in so many ways. And so, that was really good. But I really, um, I didn't thrive in a lot of other ways. And I kind of let myself know that there were gonna be a lot of like, canned ravioli meals on the couch watching Grey's Anatomy, and, like, I just was kind of like, this has to be okay. Because, and it's, it's a little isolating, like, there's not a lot of queer women. in this field of work, there's not a lot of, like, relate to in that, like, um, you know, I have friends whose partners like, go on tour to play music, and they're, you know, they are used to that sort of length of time apart. But it's rare to find someone who's like, not a military wife, who, to a man who like, understands what it's like to have that long of time apart where your partner is doing a more dangerous job. So it definitely a little isolating in, like, for both of us, because also like, you know, Jackie doesn't know what it's like to be on my side and vice versa. Like she's in her own eyes.
Katherine May 27:05
She's doing she's doing all that time. And yeah,
Marlee Grace 27:07
so yeah, it was, um, but a beautiful thing, too. Like we made it through in such a, like, powerful, healthy way. Like we really managed to like, I can't imagine how exhausted I mean, you're literally she was literally like digging a line in the dirt for like, 16 hours a day with a 45 pound backpack on in 100 degree weather next to flames like sometimes on her period, like, and to, like, be so loving to me, and like always, like, checking in. And so yeah, I feel like just grateful that we, I don't know, those those situations don't like shake us too much. But yeah, my coping was a lot of frozen meals and a lot of TV.
Katherine May 27:56
And that's okay, like, sometimes that's the best you can do. I think, as long as you eat, you know, that's enough. I'd love to just ask a little bit about Getting to Center and what that's all about for anyone that hasn't come across your work before. You described yourself to be yesterday as a toolkit person, which I think is really wonderful. Is this a toolkit? Because there's a there's a bit of memoir in there, too, I'd say.
Marlee Grace 28:20
Yeah. You know, I really, I was really struck by starting to read your book this past week and talking about your book yesterday, I guess is where you talk about it constantly. Um, but I, how old are you? Or do you not?
Katherine May 28:36
I am 43. I have to think about it really hard every time. Yeah.
Marlee Grace 28:40
Okay, great. It's funny, because I felt that feeling of like, Oh, my book in my late 30s or early 40s will look more like that, like, that's not to shame Getting to Center. I think it's a beautiful book, but I am still like, I get really into something I'm working on in my personal life is like not trying to fix or solve everything. And their energy Getting to Center that's a little bit like, here's how I fixed it. Not already a couple months. After putting it out. I'm like, Ooh, that could have been a little more of just storytelling. Like I don't know if I needed to tell people how to fix it at the end or something. Because it's so but...
Katherine May 29:30
but I think that's what we need sometimes, isn't it? We need someone to come and like say confidently actually, look, I've got something that can help. Don't worry about this. There's this stuff you can do.
Marlee Grace 29:41
Oh, that's so sweet. So yeah, it is you know, the book? Yeah, I definitely feel like there's more of a of a story of like of a true memoir in me waiting to happen and will not exist. But um,
Katherine May 29:54
yeah, I can feel that I can feel that coming out of you.
Marlee Grace 30:00
Because Yeah, this book is more of, you know, it's really broken up into sort of, like 18 or so like essays, you know, that are that have threads that go throughout, but are sort of, you know, really looking at these themes I've been exploring through the lens of my sobriety and my queerness and going through a divorce and just sort of the things, all the things I really packed into my 20s sort of me like reporting back, sort of, like I mentioned about the Saturn return sort of being like, Okay, I'm on the other side like it is, it is a really different texture of life in my early 30s, then it was going through, you know, I got sober at 22. I got married at 25. I got divorced at 28, I realized I was gay at 29. I just was like, doo doo doo, doo,
Katherine May 30:50
my God, you are busy in your 20s
Marlee Grace 30:52
I was busy. And I opened and closed a business during that time. You know, I had a physical space in Grand Rapids, Michigan for four years. And so, yeah, just a lot in that time. And yeah, the book is really about, you know, I say like, this is not an advice book, like this is is really a book of how I have really stayed alive, you know, through addiction and pain and transition and really chosen life over and over again, for myself, and how I managed to keep making art and keep finding joy and feel my feelings. And yeah, give it back to people in book form. And it's, it's felt really special. It's wild. How on time it fell in the pandemic, right? I you know,
Katherine May 31:43
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Marlee Grace 31:44
And yeah, books book selling is, it's really hard right now, it's really hard to see a lot of places backordered it's hard to see big publishers that have small imprints sort of flailing along, found out that all of the pre orders placed through my publisher never got mailed.
Katherine May 32:06
Oh, no. Oh, God
32:08
About six weeks ago. So
Katherine May 32:13
Arhhhh
Marlee Grace 32:13
Yeah, it's been painful in some ways to feel like, it's just and that's me, like, I'm frustrated. And I try to be gentle. I'm like, I think every system and structure doesn't work right now. And like he sort of mentioned before, it's asking us to really look at the systems that have been built to not support us. And it can be frustrating. And it's like, Cool, let's rebuild.
Katherine May 32:44
Yeah. How do we do this better? Definitely.
Marlee Grace 32:47
Yeah, so as far as.. I've heard that the books have now been mailed, but they're all been an interesting, interesting experience. But I'm glad it's out in the world.
Katherine May 33:01
Well, Marlee, thank you so much for talking to me, it's been absolutely amazing. So people can find your book everywhere good books are sold, which is called Getting to Center. It's a really helpful guide that I think loads of people will find hugely useful, as you say, particularly this year of all yours. And they can find you on Instagram for a very brief amount of time before you go on holiday. As Marlee Grace, and I'll put all the links in the show notes anyway, but thank you so much for talking to us today.
Marlee Grace 33:29
Thank you so much, Katherine, this was lovely.
Katherine May 33:41
And that's all for us today. Thank you so much ta Marlee Grace for such a fascinating conversation. Getting to Center is available from all good bookstores, and you can spend more time with Marlee by joining her planetarium portal, a membership community. Go to marleegrace.space/patreon. I'll be back next week with another brilliant writer who is intimate with winter. Thanks for listening.
Show Notes
In this frank and wide-ranging conversation, Marlee Grace talks about the process of finding a life that makes you happy. Drawing on her book, Getting to Center, she talks about finding love, living with addiction and the ongoing quest to find balance in life that's led to her decision to leave Instagram (at least for a while).
Marlee Grace is a dancer and writer whose work focuses on the self, attention, devotion, creativity, and art making. Her practice takes shape in movement videos, books, quilting, online courses, and hosting artists. Marlee’s two books How to Not Always be Working and Getting to Center have been best sellers at indie bookstores around the country. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, Dance Magazine, Vanity Fair, The Huffington Post, and more. You can find her zines, things she makes, artists she hosts, and more at marleegrace.space/home
We talk about:
Going through radical personal change
Fighting addiction
Learning to take care of yourself
Links from this episode:
Marlee's website •
Marlee’s quilting page
Quilt app (US only)
Marlee’s book, Getting To Center
Marlee’s Patreon
Clementine Morrigan’s website
Adrienne Marie Brown’s website
To keep up to date with The Wintering Sessions, follow Katherine on Twitter, Instagram and Substack
For information on Katherine’s online writing courses, including her programme Wintering for Writers, visit True Stories Writing School
Wintering is out now in the UK, and the US.
