Simran Jeet Singh on Radical Interconnectedness
How We Live Now with Katherine May:
Simran Jeet Singh on Radical Interconnectedness
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Being a Sikh in America gives Simran Jeet Singh a very particular insight into the divisions that run between us: on one hand, his visible differences have made him a target for racism; on the other, his religion emphasises the connectedness of all humans, and urges him towards compassion, forgiveness and love.
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Listen to the Episode
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Katherine May:
Hello. It's 6:00 in the evening and I'm out on the dark beach. It's that time of year, the clocks have gone back, and the dog still needs her evening walk. And so off we go out into the night. It feels like crossing some kind of a barrier. I've walked through the dark back streets of Whitsable, and now here I am, the tide's in, the sea looks black, the stars are out tonight, it's a clear night. There is a waxing gibbous moon just over half going towards full. It's not too cold. It's actually fairly temperate. It's funny how hard it feels to come out here, how much I resent it when the dog clearly needs a normal walk. And then I get down here, and the beach is a kind of magical place. It doesn't make any sense, a beach in the dark. Beaches are for sunshine. That's what we learned when we're growing up. They're for sunshine and holidays and ice creams and warm months. And when I first moved to Whitstable, it was about this time of year, I think November, and I had a house right on the seafront. I rented for just six months because the owner lived in Australia.
Our winter, their summer. And the first night when I couldn't sleep and looked out of the window, I saw the beach in the dark, and I'd never seen something like that before. The magic of it completely tipped me over and it's still there now. It's one of those bits of magic in everyday life that you forget are there until you force yourself to go and see it. So here I am on the beach in the dark and I can see the Isle of Sheppey lit up and even further than that south end. I'm having to watch my steps so I don't fall over. I think I really did then, ironically. So I need to gather my thoughts enough to talk to you about this week's episode, which is with another magical person Simran Singh, who I wanted to ask about how we come together again, because his account of the life and philosophy of being a Sikh, and I learned from him to call Sikhs. Sikhs, and not Sikhs as I grew up saying. He talks about how communitarian that life is, how generous, how loving and how focused on bonding with your fellow human feeling empathy for them.
Understanding them rather than hating them even in the most dire of circumstances. I think it's incredibly inspiring in these dark times. And I wanted to introduce you all to him. Hope you enjoy the conversation. I'll see you a little later.
So Simran, welcome so much to how we live now. I'm so thrilled to have you on the podcast.
Simran Singh:
Oh, thank you.
Katherine May:
I'm going to read a little introduction about you too, which I've already planned, so I'm going to do it. Simran Jeet Singh is the executive director of the Religion and Society Program at The Aspen Institute. He's also the author of the bestselling The Light We Give: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life. A huge welcome. That's quite the job title you have there.
Simran Singh:
Religion and Society. No big deal.
Katherine May:
Just a small thing to cover. I mean, you must get it done in half a week. Right?
Simran Singh:
Exactly.
Katherine May:
So I want to talk to you today about the sort of theme of this cluster of recordings I'm making, which is about how we can come back together again. And I'm excited to talk to you because your book reflects so much on that and about the ways in which your religious perspective brings this kind of communitarian belief system almost, which is all about connection. Am I right in saying that?
Simran Singh:
That's right. Yeah, exactly. It's so interesting to me as someone who was raised in a Sikh family and had access to these teachings for so much of my life, and as I share in the book, didn't really appreciate them or see them as particularly distinctive or valuable until very recently. And as I started to dig into them, realizing that there are some answers here in this tradition in another spiritual wisdom that can help us address some of the biggest challenges of today. And so yeah, I'm very glad to be here in this conversation with you on this topic.
Katherine May:
Yeah, well, I think we age into these structures that we are given, but it didn't come as a surprise to me that maybe you resisted them a little more when you were younger because it made you uncomfortably visible, I think at school, particularly the wearing of a turban, which was a misinterpreted quite often, but also just clearly marked out a difference. Can you talk a little bit about what you lived through as a younger lad?
Simran Singh:
Yeah, sure. Well, my parents immigrated to the United States before I was born. So I was born and raised in a place that many of you may have heard of before, it's called Texas. My brothers and I were some of the only turban-wearing kids in all of South Texas. And so we stuck out everywhere we went. People had questions for us. Sometimes they were kind and curious and innocuous, and sometimes they weren't so kind and not so innocuous. And so racism was very much a part of our daily lives. And I guess in sticking with your theme for today, one of the challenges that I felt around religious identity and also American identity was so much of how we experienced the world had to do with our difference and how we looked and how we perceived ourselves in contradistinction to how other people perceived us.
And so one of the challenges becomes, well, why do I have to live this way? Do I have to make this choice of choosing to look different and making my life harder? And another piece of it is when there is so much attention on you because of how you look, and there are real dangers when it comes to violence and racism and especially in a place like Texas. And so these are on your mind constantly. And how do you move beyond the self-consciousness that you feel all the time of being different and get to a place where you can really do what the spiritual wisdom offers us, which is transcend the ego, transcend the focus on the self, and make sure that you're not just constantly thinking about who you are and what you wanted and really thinking about yourself in relationship with the world
Katherine May:
And for you and loads of people in your community, you became particularly visible after 9/11.
Simran Singh:
It's a strange experience because even before 9/11, I mean, people noticed us everywhere we went. So it's not that we were more visible, and it's not that I had changed anything about how I showed up in the world. I mean, I was still wearing the same turban and had the same beard I had every other day. I mean, what really changed was how people received us and perceived us and saw us, I mean quite literally as the enemy, and people we knew were attacked and killed just for being who they were. And we faced our fair share of challenges too. I mean, people who would come after us and deny us service or call us nasty names. I mean, it was very intense. I was 18 years old at the time. It was a strange experience to understand that the way that I saw myself was at odds with how other people saw me.
And until that point, it was completely reasonable and actually quite practical to ignore the hate that would come my way. And all of a sudden to ignore it was actually even more dangerous than potentially escalating it because if I didn't pay attention and if I didn't work proactively, then we would continue to be in harm's way. So it was a profound shift in my life where I had to start working against these issues that for so long I would've rather ignored and pretended they didn't exist, but they did and I had to deal with them. And it was a really powerful awakening for me.
Katherine May:
It's so hard though, I mean particularly for a young person to just have no choice but to tackle something like that, to not be able to just hide away and go through your growing up in relative peace and privacy. I think that must have been incredibly difficult.
Simran Singh:
It was difficult. I mean, I won't try and minimize the difficulty of the experience. And also I think what I've learned over the years is we each have our own challenges and life is hard for all of us. And one of the, I think real dangers that so many of us fall victim to is thinking that what we go through is incomprehensible to the people around us. That they don't go through similar ups and downs, that they don't have difficulties in their lives. And I remember during that period just feeling so alone, feeling so isolated that my family was the only one in the world who knew what it was like to be us.
And part of what really saved me was starting to recognize that even though there weren't people in our neighborhood or in our town or in our city who shared our experiences, there were people around the country and I may have never met them and they may not know who I am, but we shared this journey in some way that we shared this experience. And I started to develop, I mean it's a really strange experience. I started to develop a real connection with people who I had had never met before. I mean, I couldn't give you a name, I couldn't give you a face, but I knew that Sikhs and Muslims and South Asians and anyone with brown skin in America at the time was going through the same thing and understood my challenges and therefore I didn't feel so alone anymore. And there was some solace in that.
Katherine May:
Yeah. There's a huge solace in realizing that you're similar to someone else and in sharing outsidership almost. I think that's certainly what I've experienced through the internet quite often. And so a lot of your book is, or your book, I guess the point around which The Light We Give unfolds is your response to a massacre of a Sikh congregation in Wisconsin, I think, in 2012. And we're speaking today in the aftermath of another attack on a Sikh family in California. Maybe you could outline a little bit about the event that kind of inspired a lot of the changes that took place in you that you describe in your book, first of all, because I'm not sure if everyone's aware of it as an event, if I'm honest.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, sure. I mean, it was August of 2012 when a white supremacist entered a Sikh place of worship in Wisconsin and opened fire on the congregation. And he ultimately killed seven people, and took his own life as well. And at the time, it was the largest and most deadly mass shooting at a place of worship in the US in almost 50 years. And unfortunately, I have to say at the time it was because there have been more over the years that have done.
Katherine May:
That record has been broken since. Yeah.
Simran Singh:
Bigger and more deadly. I mean, things are not getting better that's for sure. But part of the experience in this, and maybe this sort of speaks to your question about the difficulty and how we take on these challenges during these moments. I mean of course there was real pain and sadness around the loss of life. I think for me especially, it felt like a slap in the face in realizing so personally and so viscerally how innocent people are killed constantly in our world because other people can't control their own anger and their own hatred. I remember feeling that so sharply in those days. And there was another aspect of it that it was sort of a jab that I felt that even though we've been here in this country for more than a century, still people have no idea who we are. And we could say this about the killer, but we could also say this about everyone who was covering these attacks, people who were watching people who didn't even hear about them.
And a lot of that has to do with the lack of awareness and literacy around cultural difference. But I think that the part that I found most challenging, and this sort of gets to the crux of your question here, the part that I felt most challenging was that this was the first time in my life where I wasn't able to see the humanity in someone who didn't see my humanity, is maybe a way to put it, right. Up until this point, even when people said nasty things to me or did nasty things to me or people in my community or other communities, I had developed a practice and an ability, and I think it was served me really well in order to not get sucked into hate. It had been consistently the case that even in those moments I could see the attacker or the perpetrator as human, as deserving of dignity despite their worst actions.
And in this moment I started to feel myself getting sucked into the anger and had real difficulty in finding the humanity in this white supremacist who had hate in his heart and took it out on innocent people and killed people with families who didn't deserve his anger, but also didn't deserve to be murdered, especially while they prayed. So that presented me with a new challenge once I started to recognize what was going on internally of wanting to and really needing to figure out how to deal with this person and get to a place where I could see the light in him as I try to do in everyone else that I need.
Katherine May:
But that's such a question for our age, I think. Even if we are not directly affected by such a terrible act of violence as that, how do we learn to see the humanity? And I think you would ultimately say the divinity in people who are so far apart from us that we cannot think our way into a scenario in which we will go and do something like that. It's kind of beyond our comprehension of what it is to be human, but I mean, despite that it seems like there was an instant response from the people closest to that tragedy in being able to speak compassionately of it and not to reach for hatred.
Simran Singh:
And I mean share a little bit of this on the book, I found that to be so inspiring, especially because I wasn't in Wisconsin, I have some family there, but they were safe, they were fine. They weren't there the day of the attack. Although I'm a member of this community and feel connected to the people who were killed, it wasn't proximate to me in the way that it was for them. And here I am struggling with my own anger, and then I see them and I talk to them and they are living without hate and without fear. And they literally have, this is a teaching in our tradition. It's one of the first concepts in our scripture. No fear, no hate. Nirbhau nirvair. And they had this written onto T-shirts that they were wearing and I heard them saying this and I saw this on their T-shirts and I said, oh my God, these people are living into the best of their values at a time when it must be the most difficult.
Katherine May:
Even then. Yeah.
Simran Singh:
Right, exactly. And if they can do it, then I should be able to figure this out. And so I had this thought in my head of I should be able to, this is intellectually something I can understand, but still getting there emotionally was a journey for me. And I'll say also part of what I've experienced in my work with victims of hate in this country and beyond is that it is not common for me to see people respond to the people who attack them with love. I mean, that happens occasionally. It happens rarely, but when it happens, you see it and you really hold onto it and say, "This is what I hope that I can be in the worst moments of my life." And part of what I've learned is I think there's something, at least within Sikh philosophy that I found really compelling that is this teaching that if we can really learn to see the light within one another, then we can actually move beyond the very concept of stranger and enemy.
And so there are some philosophies and some of which we know very well and ascribe to which say you should love your enemies. And I think that is a beautiful teaching and something that we could all learn from. And I think part of what Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism, would say is, "Actually, you don't even have to have enemies." We can get to a place where you're just loving the people around you, and you don't need to see one another as being in opposition.
Katherine May:
In a very separate kind of a way.
Simran Singh:
Exactly. We can see each other as being in relationship with one another as opposed to an opposition or in contradistinction. And I think that is such a beautiful way to view the world. And I will also say that in this moment, especially, during the attack in Wisconsin, it is so difficult to actually live that way on a day-to-day basis.
Katherine May:
Oh my goodness. Yeah. You make a case for, or you use this for Codian term, the technologies of the self, of almost explain how you can train yourself through practicing a certain belief system to control your response to a certain extent or to improve your response at moments like this. Please correct me if I'm getting this completely wrong. And so it's almost like we need to spend a lifetime preparing the way we think ready for these most difficult moments.
Simran Singh:
Yeah. Well, you'll appreciate this as a fellow writer who writes about aspirational. I mean, the funny thing about writing about this is that one might get the impression that I've perfected this myself and that's very far from the truth, but I can share what I've learned and what I'm aiming to do based on what I've learned. And that is, I mean, you described it beautifully, and I think we don't need a fancy philosopher Foucault to tell us this. I think in even plain language we can understand it. But Foucault was the writer through whom I came to understand this idea and how to put it into words. And basically what he says, and it's not rocket science, he basically says, if we put discipline into our lives and practice whatever it is that we identify as our values, that practice will develop, not just in terms of the skill that we're practicing.
So if you could practice shooting a basketball and get better at basketball, sure, you can get better that way. But the disciplinary practice actually does something internally too. And what that does is it strengthens your inner fortitude, what he calls your ethical character. And I've experienced this in different ways, and it doesn't just have to be spiritual. I talk in my book about how I experienced this through running and how going through the daily discipline of preparing for a marathon actually made me more disciplined in other aspects of my life where it made it easier for me to make the right choice because I was making the right choice through my daily preparation. And this is what Foucault is talking about, that when you just have ideas in your head, but you don't put them into practice, who knows how you're going to respond because you haven't really cultivated anything.
All you have is a brain. I mean, your brain is not making these choices in these tough moments. And so what can you really do? And what I have found is that for me, years of dealing with racism, because of how I look, years of wearing my turban out in public and being intentional about how I respond because of how it reflects my community, has really developed, I mean, without me even being aware of this happening to me or happening inside of me, finding that actually it's really easy for me when somebody says something hateful to me on the street to respond with grace. And my friends say that's not normal. That's not how people are normal. And they've asked me, "How did you develop that?" And so I've had to go back and really figure out the process of-
Katherine May:
Almost in retrospect.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where this point from Foucault comes up. You just practice it, you've live it. And then when push comes to shove, you're ready for those difficult moments. And sometimes they're not as easy as others. I struggled, even though I had years of practice. When this massacre happened, I really struggled to hold on my discipline. But I think part of what enabled me to get through that tough period was the years of practice that I had put in so that I could actually have a foundation to build on. So yeah, it is a really powerful teaching.
Katherine May:
But that fascinates me because I think we're in a place at the moment where we seem to be governed by conflict and we're all kind of afraid of that conflict. It's not that anyone seems to be enjoying the culture war as it gets called. And in fact, a big part of it is seems that we're afraid of the, I don't know, criticism of our way of life that might come from our perceived kind of opposite side or that we're afraid of being hurt or harmed by the words that we might encounter. But what you are saying is that you had no choice but to encounter the harm and it made it gave you a technology almost by which you could handle it better and reduce conflict into the future.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. And as people ask me, I mean, this has happened since I was a child. As people ask me, "Why do you wear a turban?" For most of my life, it never occurred to me to say that it's an external article of clothing that I wear on top of my head. What sense would it make to someone if I said, "Well, it helps form me on the inside." We don't think that way. And I never really thought that way. But there's also a teaching and a memory within Sikh tradition that our founders and leaders are called gurus. And as the ninth one was being executed, as he stood up to state oppression, the Sikh community, his followers, the tradition goes, did not stand up for him in that moment and did not step up in this time of need by their principles.
And the 10th guru, his successor, saw this and was hurt by it and said, "We are never going to be in a position again where we can hide who we are and not live by our values. And so I am going to give you an external appearance that everyone will know who you are and what you stand by." And so you're going to be held accountable and that's going to be self-accountability, but it's also public accountability. And so this is actually something that I think about when I tie my turban every morning. I think about the values that my tradition gives to me, right? Integrity, service, justice, honesty, all of these different teachings that our traditions offer us. And I say, "Okay, today I'm going to do this and I'm going to live by this." And there are going to be, in most cases, on a day-to-day basis, it's pretty easy. But then there are moments where it's not easy and I'm going to make the choice each day that this is who I'm going to be and how I'm going to live. And so I think there is something within the intention of the Sikh identity that is meant to do this for us.
Katherine May:
So the visibility is part of the point almost?
Simran Singh:
Right. And it's how we understand it, that when we talk about it, we'll often say to people like, this is sort of like a uniform, so people can tell who we are and know what we're about. But I think there's another layer that I would add to that, which is, and then when we live into that, then we become who we want to be. And I think that's the trick that so many of us are missing as we know where we want to go and how we want to become. But we don't necessarily know how to get there. I think this is part of it, at least for me.
Katherine May:
I know how hard it is to keep representing that. I mean, I'm autistic and I spend a lot of time in public talking about being autistic and me talking about being autistic doesn't always bring out the best in me, let's just say. And for me, it's something that could very easily be invisible, but I choose to manifest it because I think it's really important that it's made visible. And there are other people in my community who don't get the choice about whether or not it's visible. I find it relatively simple to mask. It doesn't come without any effect, but I can, whereas others can't. But is so exhausting is the constant reiteration of explaining what we are, because it's so poorly understood and finding the patience to be kind about that. Because I think often questions that can feel very grating are not intended with any offense at all. They're genuinely curious or they're genuinely mystified, at least, they come from a genuine place of not understanding, even if they can land in a way that feels a little aggressive, and that can be very, very hard. And I know that some people would say that it shouldn't be your job to explain or my job to explain to other people that they should be going out and seeking the information that we shouldn't be doing that emotional labor. How do you see that?
Simran Singh:
Yeah, I mean, I hear you and I get that, and it's hard, and I know it's-
Katherine May:
There you sigh. I think that probably said everything.
Simran Singh:
Well, it's tough also because, so here's what I'll say. I completely get the exhaustion that many people face that what you're describing is true for a lot of people. What I'll say also is I haven't found that personally to be true of my experience, and I actually get a lot of energy out of it. And I've been trying to understand why, because as I listen to people explain why they're so tired, I'm like-
Katherine May:
Trying so how to do it, please.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, no, it's not that. It's more like I feel like I must be doing something wrong if I'm not getting it. But I'm the opposite in that I feel like I get so much energy out of sharing. And I think what I would attribute it to is a mindset that my parents offered me when I was younger. And part of it, I mean, you can hear the burden or the obligation one way, and then I'll share it perhaps in a way that sort of flips it. And that is, growing up in Texas as kids wearing turbans, my parents would say, "You're probably the only Sikhs that anyone will ever meet, and so make sure you make a good impression." And so of course there's pressure there. You as a 10-year-old are responsible for an entire community-
Katherine May:
That's quite a lot.
Simran Singh:
... across the world. So there is pressure there. And what I started to understand was what a powerful gift that in a single interaction with someone, I could shape their entire understanding of a people that is underrepresented, misrepresented, unknown, invisible and so on. And so I actually over time in recognizing the cost of cultural ignorance, started to see an incredible gift in it, and something that was really liberating in that I had the agency and the opportunity to tell my own story to shape people's impressions about who I am, and they would actually listen and they would actually be affected by what I had to say, or even just watching me. I mean, one of the strange experiences that I have is because of people's stereotypes here in the US about what it means to wear a turban. Even just doing some of the things I love most, being out on the playground with my kids, running in Central Park or in a marathon or whatever it is, all of these things are shattering people's stereotypes. I mean, they're acts of radical resistance for me, and they're constructive in terms of creating a better understanding of one another.
So it's just a different way of slicing it and a different way of viewing it. But for me, I think that feeling that I can help change someone and help them grow just with a simple interaction or a simple conversation, to me, there's always been something really exciting about that.
Katherine May:
That is such a beautiful way of seeing it. I mean for me, I'm always thinking in terms of duty, almost, like it's my duty to find the patience to explain this because there was a point in my life when I didn't understand it too. And I'm always trying to position myself back at that time when I didn't understand and how easily I could have made horrible mistakes that would've really hurt people's feelings. But I just wonder if this is the kind of everlasting optimism that your religion teaches you. That seems to be a really key quality that you foster, always looking at things hopefully.
Simran Singh:
And maybe people listening will be like, "Man, that's so contrived. This guy is just putting-
Katherine May:
I'm sure they wouldn't think that.
Simran Singh:
.... the silver lining on everything." But I mean, here's what I'll say, I'll speak to it from a place of worldview and then I'll speak to it from a place of practicality. And the worldview in our tradition is that the entire world and every person and every moment and every place is infused with divinity. Everything is a gift. And the challenges can we learn to see our lives in that way. And part of what I think is really difficult for people is being willing to see that, right? Do I even accept the premise that everything is divine or everything is beautiful or everything is great? That's one challenge. And that's up to people to decide how they want to understand the world intellectually or theologically or whatever term or approach you want to use.
But the other challenge, and I think this is actually a more difficult one, is actually making that choice. And I'll give you an example of how this has worked for me. And I think this gets into the practicality for it. When the terrorist attacks of 9/11 happened and New York was under siege and we were in Texas, and my family, because of the hate crimes against people who look like us, we went on lockdown, we went home immediately, we shut down the house. We did not leave for several days. The death threat started coming in the day of. And I mean it was intense. We were scared as Americans of what was happening to our country. We were scared at Sikhs, what was happening to our community? We were hearing about attacks all over. And after a few days, my dad said, "Well, aren't we so lucky?" And I said, "What are you talking about? You must not understand what's going on."
Katherine May:
We've been stuck indoors with days, dad, come on.
Simran Singh:
I'm an 18-year-old, so I'm annoyed by anything he says at this point, anyway, so I'm just like, "Come on, are you really going to turn this into a teaching moment?" And he was like, "No, seriously. Have you noticed that our neighbors have been coming by with food, that your classmates and teammates have been calling to check in to make sure you're okay, that your teachers are checking in on you too." I mean, it was such an interesting perspective that he brought to us, which is, yeah, there are a handful of people who hate us or who want to kill us or whatever that is, but notice the hundreds of people who are showing up for you, who actually care about you.
I mean, he didn't say it so explicitly, I mean, it was such an interesting observation that he was making, which is if you choose to look around you with open eyes and an open heart, you will probably notice as I have that there are so many more good people around you with good hearts and good intentions than there are people who have bad hearts and bad intentions. And the point is not ignore the nastiness and let everything go and cultural relativism and all that. The point is really we are wired to see the threats, to see what scares us, to see what might endanger us.
And we have to make it a very intentional choice to also notice the good stuff that's constantly all around us and that we're probably not noticing or taking for granted or both. And so that lesson for me, I think is a really practical way of showing this teaching of everlasting optimism in the Sikh tradition, what we call Chardi kala, which is it's not about some sort of superficial or soft version of living, just about making the choice to see the world for what it is rather than the threats you're constantly perceiving based on how we're socialized or what we're worried about.
Katherine May:
I like you, I'm a great believer in deliberately noticing the good. I flow with a strange optimism that I can never quite account for really, but I just can't ever help but notice how kind the majority of people are and how concerned. And a lot of the time I see people tipping themselves over into despair because they're so worried about other people, and it's hard to feel truly depressed about humanity when you realize that most people are desperate to make sure everyone else is okay. And we might not always manage to make that happen, but that's a different question altogether.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, it's such a beautiful note. So often people are asking what makes you feel hopeful, or what gives you hope today? I think because we're looking so desperately for it, and I think it's those everyday observations of the normal people who are not in the news, but they're the vast majority of people who just, like you're saying, desperately want everything to be okay. I mean, that's all they want. And yeah, there's something really beautiful about that. Thank you for saying that.
Katherine May:
Well, I think in all honesty, most people aren't particularly political and don't think in grand terms and public discourse is full of people who do think in big terms. And there's a sort of fragmentation there that we don't understand is even present when we don't really perceive the goodness because the stuff we hear is people making huge proclamations, which can feel very violent and very toxic. This is a question I'd love to ask you actually, because you write so much about connection and community. One of the things it seems to me is that we've stopped trusting our own communities over the last few years, and that's why we feel so desolate. Have you perceived that too? Is that something that's happening in your world?
Simran Singh:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are many reasons we can give as to why this is happening. I mean, people have many different theories. I think many of them are true. People will be quick to point to phones and social media. People will be quick to point to the rise and politicized news sources and polarized news sources. People will be quick to point to demagoguery in politics. I mean, I think all of these are true. And the challenge is really taking stock of the impact. I mean, I think the first step in so much of what ails us in our lives is acknowledging that there's a problem and understanding what the problem actually is. I mean, we can take time to go back and trace the roots or the sources or the origins of what's creating these problems. And I think it's probably appropriate and healthy to do so, so we can address them.
But I think right now, part of what we're seeing, whether we're looking at suicide rates or whether we're looking at the mental health crisis or we're looking at any sort of metric around how people are feeling, the big takeaway should be that we're in a lot of trouble. We constantly tell ourselves that we're connected, that we're more connected than any society in human history. And in some ways that's true. And also it doesn't feel to me like the ways in which we are connecting is providing us the nourishment that we need. And perhaps we can take more seriously the possibility. And I think the likelihood that we are deceiving ourselves into thinking that we're connected, but we're not really, and there's a real cost of that.
Katherine May:
Yeah. I wonder if we're just available instead rather than actually connected.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, that's a nice word for it. Yeah. My parents used to talk about this when we were kids, and again, this was super annoying because we were kids and they were always trying to teach us stuff and-
Katherine May:
Don't teach me lessons, mom.
Simran Singh:
Exactly. But they would always tell us life is about relationships. And the big point they would make is at the end of the day when you're on your deathbed, no one says, "I wish I would've worked more." No one says, "I wish I had more money." Everyone says, "I just want to be with my loved ones." And we experienced this this last spring as my grandmother was on her deathbed. I mean, I was thinking about it a lot because that's all she wanted. And so I think that one of the funny things about life is we all know this, we all know what the most important things are, and somehow we convince ourselves that whatever it is that we're spending our time on, and that again, might be on our computers, it might be at work, it might be whatever. If those relationships aren't there and they aren't deep, then the isolation hits quickly and it hits hard. And it's really tough to recover from that.
So I do think your note on the lack of connection and maybe replacing whatever it is we're calling it as availability is, yeah, it is a real concern, especially for me now as I'm raising these two girls and thinking about the mental health crisis, I'm trying to figure out whatever I can do to make sure that they stay healthy within this context.
Katherine May:
Oh yeah. It's terrifying, honestly, if you're thinking about how to raise children in a way that doesn't let this world harm them, but which at the same time harms them enough that they're not completely vulnerable once they leave your house. I don't know the answer, but I am afraid at the moment that one of the things we're passing on is this, extreme sense of separation from other people and this kind of sense that opposing views are so dangerous that we must not encounter them, that we must turn our back on people rather than put ourselves in the way of them. But at the same time that they are hearing a wider range of views than they ever would've done that it would've had the opportunity to hear. And I can't unpick whether that is good and healthy or whether that's just like having your brain exploded, honestly, because that's how it often feels to me. Like I'm taking in so many perspectives that I seize up almost. It's complete stasis that I reach. And it's a very hard world to throw children into right now, I think.
Simran Singh:
It is. Yeah, it is. And I mean, it's tough enough for the adults as you're describing your experience, I'm having flashbacks to my own, which is, I guess the question in a way is how do you navigate the extreme diversity in our world? And we talk a lot about diversity in today's context and for a lot of good reasons. But there is something tricky about how we do that in ways that are healthy and constructive for us. I mean, have the same feeling you're describing of sometimes you really try and open yourself up to different ways of thinking and different people and approaches, and you hear them and you say, I'm not sure if this is actually helpful.
Katherine May:
That was I'm closing those doors up again. I'm going to scuttle up. Thanks, bye.
Simran Singh:
Exactly.
Katherine May:
That's [inaudible 00:45:11].
Simran Singh:
Yeah, exactly. And then the other challenge internally is then am I actually living by what I am announcing? I'm saying I want to be open and inclusive of different perspectives, and is it wrong to draw a line and where I draw the line, is it inappropriate place or am I doing it too early or am I doing it too late? And these are all really difficult questions as we're entering into this space.
Katherine May:
Well, I mean, diversity is such a beautiful thing. And being in contact with a more diverse view of the world lets me read your book and understand these incredible concepts from Sikhism, which I really think I will carry with me for a long time. But of course, it also shows me that ex-cousin is a bit more racist than I realized they were when I spent a couple of hours with them at a party a few years ago. And that's the challenge that we are living with, isn't it? And the challenge is to keep that into perspective, but also to understand that the challenge comes from our deep yearning, empathy for others so often. And the huge sympathy we feel when we hear about other people's tragedies and the horror we feel when we realize that people are not being kind rather than necessarily because humanity's all bad, maybe.
Simran Singh:
Yeah, this is funny. I forgot that we're on a podcast. I thought we were just talking to each other, so this is like-
Katherine May:
It's like a nice little chat. That's fine.
Simran Singh:
Not a conversation that I've had with others before. And I love getting into some of the discomfort around some of the issues that feel so comfortable. I could talk in most contexts about diversity and inclusion and all the stuff I believe about it all day. But there are some aspects of it that like you're saying, we all have that cousin who's a little-
Katherine May:
Yeah. We have all that family member.
Simran Singh:
Different. And I have friends who are like that. And in many ways I'm grateful for it because it does challenge me and helps me grow. And at some point it does feel like there is something to be said for having a compass that guides us all and how we orient ourselves in this world, which could take us towards happiness and joy and connection as opposed to the division and the pain that we see being wrought over and over again. So I feel strongly about justice and equity and getting to a place where everybody wins instead of so many people having difficulty unnecessarily. But I think the challenge for me is how we strike that balance and then also the mechanism. How do we develop that in a way that is humane and authentic and empathetic and make space for people who don't want to be along for that same journey? That is a tough place to live.
Katherine May:
Well, the thing I love doing in this podcast is going down into a place of uncertainty, because I don't think we have certainty anymore. And I think we urgently need to stop faking certainty, almost to learn to mistrust the people that are too certain because I can't see anything to be very certain about. But I think what I've learned from you is that what you can be certain about is your value system, and that can structure the way that you think and it can train you to think in ways that are more generative and more connective rather than more dislocated and angry and anomic, I guess.
Simran Singh:
Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I always appreciate someone who is open to ambiguity. I very much view the world as being far more open than the black and white way that we present it as the true and false. And I think so much of that is created by ego and driving our egos and creating supremacists and hierarchies as I'm right and you're wrong, and I'm better in your worse. And yeah, I think this point about certainty, I couldn't agree more and don't often meet people who are able to articulate it in a way that's so powerful to me. So thank you. And also the point on values as being, I think to me at least a replacement for the certainty and saying, let's have a framework that we use that helps guide us, especially in the difficult moments. And what I have found is when I can really lean into those values and those tough moments, that's the only way that I found that I'm walking away proud of how I responded rather than ashamed or embarrassed or disappointed or angry or whatever it is. And I think that's the only answer I've found so far to how we can live in this super complicated world.
Katherine May:
Thank you so much. That was such a beautiful conversation. That's just a wonderful place to stop.
Simran Singh:
Yeah. Oh, this is great. Thank you, Katherine. I really enjoyed it.
Katherine May:
The moon is so bright. I live in a little cluster of houses near the edge of the sea, in the middle of the town, and I can see the moon from my back garden, but it takes a long time for it to rise far enough. But I can actually see the whole of it has to get over everyone's house first. Everyone's trees. But here on the beach, it's really visible. It still rises over the houses, but it's in big, wide, open sky. I'm trying to identify the stars. It's a little hazy. I think I can see Mars way over the sea. It's looking very red tonight. It's amazing how that color signature carries. And Jupiter, it's over by the moon, where it's been for quite a while. I'd love to hear what you thought about the conversation with Simran. For me, it carried a real moment of revelation when he talked about how he can't avoid conflict in his life.
He can't avoid people saying terrible things to him, and that's in a way that's let him develop this skill of sitting with that conflict of kind of being with it and finding a way to respond. It honestly made me realize what a privilege is for someone like me to want to avoid conflicts, to want to avoid the fights that we're all having, the disputes and the arguments and the disagreements. Not everyone gets the chance to do that. And whereas people like Simran have had to find the bravery to confront them, we have to choose it. We can't keep exiting those situations that are so painful to us. That's a hard lesson to learn. I'm glad we're learning it together.
I'm taking you back down the sea where I think the dog will have her little paddle. Will you paddle Fraggle? What'd you think? Little paddle? No, she says she wants a biscuit. She wants a biscuit for not paddling. Come on then. You're a good girl. Yeah. She'll never stop being a street dog. She's always begging for biscuits. Thanks for listening. I love having your companionship with me. And please do let me know what you think. It's a new feature of this podcast and we'd really love your voices as part of it. I'll see you really soon. Don't forget to go out in the dark. Bye.
Show Notes
There’s a guiding question of each mini-season of How We Live Now, and this time around it’s ‘How can we come back together again?’ I posed this question to some of the world’s most important thinkers in this field: political journalist Ece Temelkuran, radical Buddhist Lama Rod Owens, digital native Emma Gannon, gathering expert Priya Parker, spiritual teacher Simran Jeet Singh and ecological writer Jay Griffiths. Each of them offered something thoughtful and fresh, and each of them changed the way I think about this current - often divided - life.
Being a Sikh in America gives Simran Jeet Singh a very particular insight into the divisions that run between us: on one hand, his visible differences have made him a target for racism; on the other, his religion emphasises the connectedness of all humans, and urges him towards compassion, forgiveness and love.
In this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation, Katherine and Simran explore building empathy, seeing the divine in everyone, and how being forced to confront white supremacy has helped Simran to develop a language to challenge those who would attack him. The Sikh value of Chardi Kala is hard to miss here: the sense of everlasting optimism that propels him forward.
Join the conversation! We’re also inviting your thoughts on each episode from now on click here to join the conversation. Answers, challenges, ideas and further questions are all welcome - there will be a further episode in a couple of months focusing on your voices.
Links from the episode:
Simran's website
Simran's book, The Light We Give: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life
Other episodes you might enjoy:
Season 2: Emma Dabiri on history and belonging
Season 3: Remona Aly on breaking an engagement and the transformative force of grief
Please consider supporting the podcast by subscribing to my Patreon where you’ll get episodes a day early (and always ad free) along with bonus episodes and more!
To keep up to date with How We Live Now, follow Katherine on Instagram and Substack
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Enchantment - Released March 2023
“Katherine May gave so many of us language and vision for the long communal ‘wintering’ of the last years. Welcome this beautiful meditation for the time we’ve now entered. I cannot imagine a more gracious companion. This book is a gift.”
New York Times bestselling author Krista Tippett
